Vokt (axis) vs Plaid (allies) 3.10 AAR

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Vokt
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Re: Vokt (axis) vs Plaid (allies) 3.10 AAR

Post by Vokt » Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:38 pm

Turn 75. September 20, 1943.

Eastern front. Wehrmacht started its offensive in Kursk destroying 5 Soviet units (4 corps and 1 HQ mech). Don river was reached. We know that Soviet reply is going to be harsh, so we badly need fair weather in October turn!:

Image

Med last Allies turn. Albania is holding well given that is a garrison facing an armoured and the continued Allied air and naval bombings. In Sicily, Italian defending units around Messina ended badly depleted after Allied attacks:

Image

Western Europe. Ruhr resource was reduced to 1 PP in last allied turn due to strategic bombings. Allies losses seem to be now steady and more or less on every turn, 2 steps are lost on each allied bomber unit for 1 or 0 steps lost on german intercepting fighters. German corps on its way to Orleans, was bombed. Shot below is at the start of axis turn.
Last edited by Vokt on Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vokt (axis) vs Plaid (allies) 3.10 AAR

Post by Vokt » Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:57 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:How is the Axis oil and manpower situation?

Italy would fall soon so wouldn't it be best to send German units into Italy to hold the line there once the Italian units are removed?
Since may 1943 Germany manpower dropped below 75. I have been buying many corps units and also mechs so now is 65. Oil is good: 450. This good oil level might be due to the scarce use that Germany has made of its panzerkorps units on this game. Summer 42 campaign was not the usual advancing into southern USSR but was fought on the forest terrain of northern USSR and mainly with corps units.

I will soon start to man Gustav line with corps and paratrooper units. Allies still have to take Messina and Tirana. Tirana should fall soon but Messina can hold for several turns so IMO there's still enough time for redeploying german units on this scenario.

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Re: Vokt (axis) vs Plaid (allies) 3.10 AAR

Post by Cybvep » Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:28 pm

The idea of the Eastern offensive in 1943 was a good one in your game (it's not universally a good idea), but I think that you acted a bit too late. The Soviets aren't very strong yet.

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Re: Vokt (axis) vs Plaid (allies) 3.10 AAR

Post by Vokt » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:10 pm

Turn 76. October 10, 1943.

Eastern front last Allies turn (fair weather). Red Army strong counteroffensive W of Voronezh killed 3 panzerkorps and 3 German mechs. Soviets have thrown a powerful armoured force of 6 tank armies against the Germans. 3 Guards mechanized units and 4 VVS tacs would have provided additional firepower:

Image

Eastern front Axis turn. Winter weather in the East. No matter the worsening weather, Germans continued to attack and killed 2 Soviet units, a Guards mech and the halved Soviet armoured 4xE of Sumy. Of course, attack counted with air support from Luftwaffe that, at least, is still winning air combats:

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Med last Allies turn. An Allied landing fleet appeared south of Rome. British entered Tirana, this making 4th Italian surrender city taken by the Allies. In Sicily, another Italian army unit was killed. Italian sub sunk near Albania coasts:

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Med Axis turn. Italian army in Calabria attacked again US corps, for slightly better results that the first attack. Railing of units to oppose the landings S of Rome. Italians subs, even at low strength, ketp on harassing Allied carrier units:

Image
Last edited by Vokt on Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Vokt (axis) vs Plaid (allies) 3.10 AAR

Post by Vokt » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:17 pm

Cybvep wrote:The idea of the Eastern offensive in 1943 was a good one in your game (it's not universally a good idea), but I think that you acted a bit too late. The Soviets aren't very strong yet.
Now I regret not having launched the offensive sooner. If normal Winter weather stays till Severe winter, this will turn into a big Red Army success.
Last edited by Vokt on Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vokt (axis) vs Plaid (allies) 3.10 AAR

Post by petertodd » Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:53 pm

Vokt wrote: British entered Tirana (3rd italian surrender city in allies hands)...
Isn't that is 4 surrender cities in allied hands: Tripoli, Cagliari, Palermo, and Tirana

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Re: Vokt (axis) vs Plaid (allies) 3.10 AAR

Post by Vokt » Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:15 pm

petertodd wrote:
Vokt wrote: British entered Tirana (3rd italian surrender city in allies hands)...
Isn't that is 4 surrender cities in allied hands: Tripoli, Cagliari, Palermo, and Tirana
You are right. Already corrected.

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Re: Vokt (axis) vs Plaid (allies) 3.10 AAR

Post by Vokt » Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:45 pm

Turn 77. October 30. 1943.

Eastern front last Allies turn. Red Army attacked again, destroying 4 German units (3 corps and 1 mech). This way, Soviets regained all the terrain lost in the first turn of German offensive in September:

Image

Eastern front Axis turn. Fair weather in the East, so now it's a give and take there. Germans attacked again and destroyed a total of 6 Soviet units (3 corps and 3 armoured). Of the 3 armoured units, 2 were Guards:

Image

Med last Allies turn. After a heavy Allied attack in Messina, Italian defenders were left at very low strength. Paratroopers in the Etna ended also mauled. Allied landing fleet around Rome withdrew. Luftwaffe fighter in Italy was attacked by RAF and it was left badly depleted:

Image

Med Axis turn. Repairing of the units in Sicily but Messina could well fall to the Allies on the next turn. Due to the proximity of RAF units in Italy, German figther was rebased to Germany and Italian tac to Venice. Wehrmacht started to deploy forces along the Gustav Line. In Calabria, again botched Italian attack:

Image
Last edited by Vokt on Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vokt (axis) vs Plaid (allies) 3.10 AAR

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:52 am

I think exposing the Axis armor and mech in the east will make the Russian steamroller towards Berlin start earlier. Russia will gain the most if both sides exchange blows losing most of their offensive units. Russia can quickly replace losses at this stage of the game. Germany can't so easily replace losses. They will have to repair damage on 2 fronts (3 when Overlords is started). Especially Luftwaffe losses are expensive to repair.

The mere presence of the Axis mech and armor reserve means the Russians can't storm through holes into the Axis defense line. In my opinion the Axis panzer forces work best late game when they can finish off Allied spearheads and then survive because friendly infantry units occupy the new front line. If the panzers are left at the front they will be finished off the next turn.

Without the Axis panzer reserve the Russians can become bolder in their attacks.

I can understand the temptation to use the Axis panzers in offensive actions, but if the price is that you eventually lose the units then it's not a good decision. Look at Germany's 1943 Kursk offensive. The panzers killed lots of Russian tanks, but after the dust had settled the Germans had to retreat and the Russians pursued them all the way to the Romanian and Polish borders before they rested.

At this stage of the game I think the Axis have to think how they will survive to the very end. At the moment the east front seems quite healthy, but it can change rapidly. Italy is not manned by many German units. France seems to not have many units either. It therefore seems like the Germans will have to transfer units from the east to the west, thus losing the control they have there now. Delaying the Allies is the key to victory.

It's hard to predict who will win this game. The Axis still have a fair chance since there was no 1943 Overlord. Italy is fighting well and will surrender late. That is good for the Axis. The Allies still have a lot of work ahead of them. Taking Paris, Rome, Hamburg and Berlin are all needed for victory. Overlord should start in March 1944 for the Allies to have time to get to Germany in time.

Before the German 1943 offensive I would have put my bet on the Axis winning this game. Now I think it's more open. A lot will depend on the next Russian turn. If the Germans lose their SS mechs and more armor then they will be routed in the winter offensive. I don't think there will be more fair weather turns so the Axis can't counter attack well. I agree with Cybvep that the offensive would have been more effective if it had begun in July and not September.
Last edited by Peter Stauffenberg on Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vokt (axis) vs Plaid (allies) 3.10 AAR

Post by Vokt » Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:10 pm

Turn 78. November 19, 1943.

Eastern front last Allies turn. Heavy fighting going on now E of Kursk. Soviets, in return, destroyed 5 Wehrmacht units (3 mechs and 2 corps). Of the 3 mechs destroyed, 2 were SS units. Fierce air combats:

Image

Eastern front Axis turn. Mud weather. Germans kept on the offensive no matter the mud. This time, 3 Soviet units (2 corps and 1 armoured) were destroyed due to Wehrmacht attacks. Air support from Luftwafe tacs again, was decisive. Tacs are still rather healthy. Same thing cannot be said of German figthers that are getting more and more depleted:

Image

Med last Allies turn. Italy surrendered to the Allies. A landing operation in a virtually empty Northern Italy was tried but that won't be possible after bad weather has come to stay in Central Europe for a few turns-:

Image

After the surrender of Italy, Germany is now producing 170 PP's per turn, manpower is 660 and oil reserves, 380.
Last edited by Vokt on Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Vokt (axis) vs Plaid (allies) 3.10 AAR

Post by Vokt » Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:26 pm

Stauffenberg wrote: It's hard to predict who will win this game. The Axis still have a fair chance since there was no 1943 Overlord. Italy is fighting well and will surrender late. That is good for the Axis. The Allies still have a lot of work ahead of them. Taking Paris, Rome, Hamburg and Berlin are all needed for victory. Overlord should start in March 1944 for the Allies to have time to get to Germany in time.

Before the German 1943 offensive I would have put my bet on the Axis winning this game. Now I think it's more open. A lot will depend on the next Russian turn. If the Germans lose their SS mechs and more armor then they will be routed in the winter offensive. I don't think there will be more fair weather turns so the Axis can't counter attack well. I agree with Cybvep that the offensive would have been more effective if it had begun in July and not September.
It's blow for blow now in the East, and it's not like the Soviets will be easily replacing their losses. They will suffer as much as the Axis, I believe.
Last edited by Vokt on Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Vokt (axis) vs Plaid (allies) 3.10 AAR

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:00 pm

Unit experience is more important than before. Losing very experienced units and having to replace them with new units will hurt.

I've also noticed that air units can be really nasty when they get a lot of experience. But I think it was true in the real war too. E. g. Hans Ullrich Rudel (legend Stuka bomber pilot). If we want to change something we should maybe give a bonus to fighters flying intercept missions since they are defending controlled territory. So shot down pilots will most likely be recovered.

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Vokt (axis) vs Plaid (allies) 3.10 AAR

Post by Vokt » Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:17 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:Unit experience is more important than before. Losing very experienced units and having to replace them with new units will hurt.

I've also noticed that air units can be really nasty when they get a lot of experience. But I think it was true in the real war too. E. g. Hans Ullrich Rudel (legend Stuka bomber pilot). If we want to change something we should maybe give a bonus to fighters fblying intercept missions since they are defending controlled territory. So shot down pilots will most likely be recovered.
That sounds like a nice and realistic idea. Brits would benefit from this during the blitz, soviet fighters during Barbarossa and german figthers during allied strategic bombers campaign over Germany.
Last edited by Vokt on Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Vokt (axis) vs Plaid (allies) 3.10 AAR

Post by Vokt » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:00 pm

Turn 79. December 9, 1943.

Eastern front last Allies turn. Red Army killed a panzerkorps Dietrich's SS mech. Hungarian mech barely survived a harsh Soviet attack:

Image

Eastern front Axis turn. Soviet corps and armoured killed due to German attacks:

Image

Med last Allies turn. Western Allies are trying again a landing near Rome:

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Med Axis turn. German corps railed to south of Rome and corps in Gustav Line moved to Naples. Repaired Med Luftwaffe fighter was rebased to Venice. If possible, a German tac will be deployed in this scenario:

Image
Last edited by Vokt on Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Peter Stauffenberg
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Re: Vokt (axis) vs Plaid (allies) 3.10 AAR

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:31 pm

Vokt wrote:
Stauffenberg wrote:Unit experience is more important than before. Losing very experienced units and having to replace them with new units will hurt.

I've also noticed that air units can be really nasty when they get a lot of experience. But I think it was true in the real war too. E. g. Hans Ullrich Rudel (legend Stuka bomber pilot). If we want to change something we should maybe give a bonus to fighters flying intercept missions since they are defending controlled territory. So shot down pilots will most likely be recovered.
That sounds like a nice and realistic idea. Brits would benefit from this during the blitz, soviet fighters during Barbarossa and german figthers during allied strategic bombers campaign over Germany.
One way to do this could be to slightly lower the air unit XP for offensive missions, but give slightly higher XP for intercept missions. When you intercept you fight over friendly territory so more shot down pilots will be recovered. When you escort or bombard you fight over enemy territory so there is a chance the shot down pilots will be captured.

Here are the XP's for air units:
FIGHTER_VS_AIR_ATTACK_XP 3
FIGHTER_VS_AIR_DEFENSE_XP 4
BOMBER_VS_AIR_ATTACK_XP 2
BOMBER_VS_AIR_DEFENSE_XP 2
FIGHTER_VS_NAVAL_ATTACK_XP 2
TAC_BOMBER_VS_NAVAL_ATTACK_XP 3
STRAT_BOMBER_VS_NAVAL_ATTACK_XP 3
AIR_VS_NAVAL_DEFENSE_XP 2
AIR_VS_SUB_EVASION_ATTACK_XP 2
FIGHTER_VS_GROUND_ATTACK_XP 2
TAC_BOMBER_VS_GROUND_ATTACK_XP 3
STRAT_BOMBER_VS_GROUND_ATTACK_XP 2
AIR_VS_GROUND_DEFENSE_XP 2
FIGHTER_VS_RESOURCE_ATTACK_XP 2
TAC_BOMBER_VS_RESOURCE_ATTACK_XP 2
STRAT_BOMBER_VS_RESOURCE_ATTACK_XP 3

We could boost the XP by 1 for some of the defense ones and drop the XP by 1 for some of trhe attack ones.

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Re: Vokt (axis) vs Plaid (allies) 3.10 AAR

Post by Cybvep » Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:12 am

That would benefit the Allies too much in the crucial early and mid-war period IMO.

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Re: Vokt (axis) vs Plaid (allies) 3.10 AAR

Post by pk867 » Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:43 pm

Also how many pilots were recovered vs killed. What are the stats or percentages?

To keep it simple would be to lower the XP gain or raise the XP level to gain any benefit.

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Re: Vokt (axis) vs Plaid (allies) 3.10 AAR

Post by Vokt » Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:41 pm

Turn 80. December 29, 1943.

Eastern front last Allies turn. 2 German corps and Hungarian mech were killed as a consequence of Soviet army attacks. Kursk was nearly taken by the Soviets, defending German mech holding at very low strength. Strong air support now from VVS with 6 tac units. Air combats results apparently are still slightly favouring Luftwaffe:

Image

Eastern front Axis turn. Axis counterattacks heavily damaged 2 Red Army mechs (one Guards), forcing them to retreat. Reinforcements (2 mechs) arrived Kursk and Sumy. Another mech replaced damaged mech in Kursk:

Image

Italy last Allies turn. Allies landed in Taranto last turn taking the city. Meanwhile, landings south of Rome are still attempted. Intense RAF air attacks:

Image

Italy axis turn. Allied landings in Taranto took the Germans by surprise the germans with no time to send any unit to that city. Von Arnim's paratrooper unit in Foggia retreated to Gustav line:

Image

Western front. Allied bombings continued no matter bad weather. USAF strategic bombers dared to operate deep within Germany territory, bombing Leuna synth oil plant. Higher tech on the Allied bombers means that they are now taking much lower losses.

Image
Last edited by Vokt on Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Vokt (axis) vs Plaid (allies) 3.10 AAR

Post by Vokt » Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:19 pm

Turn 81. January 18, 1944.

Eastern front. In last Allies turn, Soviets killed Romanian mech and German corps SE of Kursk:

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No attacks at land from Germany this turn in the East. Only some air strikes from Luftwaffe. Below shot of Eastern front at the of Axis turn:

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Italy. In last Allies turn. Brits landed 1xSE of Naples. Landed unit was left unsupplied but that's not big deal since other Allied units coming from Southern Italy will soon link with British mech. Intense Allied air attacks included this time the strategic bombing of Rome which PP's were lowered to 1:

Image

Italy Axis turn. More Wehrmacht units deployed in this scenario. Gustav Line is now completely manned with units:

Image

Western front. Ruhr resource, Essen and synth oil plant were heavily bombed and left with very low PP's. Intense partisan activity in France:

Image
Last edited by Vokt on Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:41 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Vokt (axis) vs Plaid (allies) 3.10 AAR

Post by Vokt » Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:16 pm

Turn 82. February 7, 1944.

Eastern front last Allies turn. Soviet offensive actions intensified again. A total of 3 German (2 mechs and 1 corps) units were killed by Red Army attacks. German corps 2xN of Kursk was also attacked and ended very damaged. Soviet tacs provided a wide air support and this time air combats results were even or sligthly favouring VVS fighters:

Image

Italy last Allies turn. US mech attacked paratrooper unit in Gustav line. Again, many air attacks, strategic bombing of Milan, included:

Image

Italy Axis turn. Repairs and deployments of new units like the garrison in Ancona:

Image
Last edited by Vokt on Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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