flybirda(Axis)vCarlos(Allies)

After action reports for Commander Europe at War.

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bartek74
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Re: flybirda(Axis)vCarlos(Allies)

Post by bartek74 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:40 pm

I just got anihilated by Flybird :-( It was so quick when he invaded Russia and smashed my forces, i couldn't belived, and those nasty german cavalery corps.... Terible defeat!

Vokt
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Re: flybirda(Axis)vCarlos(Allies)

Post by Vokt » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:47 pm

Soviets losing Don river line is a terrible thing for them. It's a strategical blunder.

GS 4.0 is not like other versions regarding Eastern front. I mean, severe winter 1941-42 is not like before and adequate planning from the Soviets is needed right from this date. It's not anymore about "attacking everything that moves" with no strategical purpose. Instead, you have to go after potential targets with concentrated firepower, thus avoiding high losses on your forces. Goal is to stay on the offensive during the winter whilst continuing to build a strong Red Army and air force. In 4.0, Soviets need a really strong army and air force in order to properly face 1942 Axis summer campaign.

duncanr
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Re: flybirda(Axis)vCarlos(Allies)

Post by duncanr » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:17 pm

the problem is that you can't keep a strong Soviet force at all, almost everything is destroyed in 41 - almost nothing of the original OOB survives Barbarossa!

Peter Stauffenberg
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Re: flybirda(Axis)vCarlos(Allies)

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:40 pm

Since the leaders are free then the Axis get an early advantage. It's easier now to get sufficient forces for a May 1941 Barbarossa since you don't have to purchase the leaders. The Germans get quite a few Nice leaders for 1941 so they're doing well there. The Russians don't have their best leaders in 1941 unless they pay a lot to get them early. So the Russians are struggling quite hard in 1941 as they did in the real war. The main goal for the Russians must be to save their main army by trading space for time.

Do we see new Axis strategies regarding the use of motorised corps and cavalry? The cost of cavalry is 45 PP's, but you don't burn extra oil. You also have some attack bonuses in Clear terrain. Does this make the unit too attractive? It seems the Axis mobility is better than in used to be. Thus the Russians are pushed further east than they used to in 1941. The Stalin line fortifcations don't seem to stop them for as long as they should.

Do we maybe need more Stalin line fortifications like one every other hex or maybe some contiguous? That would make the Axis burn some time breaking through this line and not allowing them to reach Stalingrad in 1941.

Some have spoken about build limitations for e. g. cavalry corps since some countries never used many of these in the real war. We voted against that since players might think differently than the real leaders did. However, if we see blobs of cavalry or motorised units then maybe something is not as it should be.

I think it's fun the Axis can actually put real pressure on the Russians now in 1941. However, they should feel the Winter as the real Germans did. Maybe bumping the severe penalty slightly is a good way to go.

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Re: flybirda(Axis)vCarlos(Allies)

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:42 pm

I've usually had pretty decent success With running at full speed With my main army and building Garrison units as stumbling Blocks for the Axis to deal With. If most of Your army is intact by the end of 1941 you can put some pressure on the Axis in the Winter. If you defend too far west then Your main army is destroyed and 1942 will be a disaster. So some adjustment of the Russian play in GS v4.0 is needed. Before it was quite easy to stop the Axis. Now they're moving faster than you like so the usual main defense line from Leningrad to Moscow and further to Rostov might not hold.

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flybirda(Axis)vCarlos(Allies)

Post by Vokt » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:02 pm

I tend to think that Eastern front scenario in 4.0 is right and need no adjustments. What it needs is a proper playing by the Allies player, otherwise Axis would deliver such a blow on the USSR both in the 1941 and 1942 campaigns, that the Soviet recovery could only be possible in late game.

Don river line is necessary and possible to be defended by the Soviets in 1941. It was vital for them to keep this river from being crossed by the Axis, and in fact, real Germans never crossed it but in the Stalingrad sector. It was not only good for defense but also as adequate platform for the offensive as Stalingrad offensive showed.

So IMO, there are 2 vital sectors that Red Army must keep in 1941 and those are: Moscow and the Don. And both can be defended well by the Soviets taking advantage of the terrain in both sectors (forest and river, respectively). If Axis is able to pass beyond those, all is uncertainty for the USSR and things will become very complicated for the Allies.

Leningrad-Novgorod sector for me is more secondary. If things go wrong there, I use to give up the western bank of Volkhov river and to build forces along the more easily defensible eastern bank.

On the contrary, we see that Carlos put the focus on the defense of the forest area around Novgorod and Leningrad, leaving rather undefended and with really big gaps, all the southern sector of the front. Had he build in strength with plenty of units along the east bank of the Don, Germans wouldn't have dared to cross it in 1941. They lacked the needed air support (German tacs couldn't keep the excessively fast pace of the Axis mobile units so they were still in Belarus by the time the panzers were at the Don) for doing that.

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Re: flybirda(Axis)vCarlos(Allies)

Post by duncanr » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:10 pm

I need to play more games to be sure - but what I see is an unstoppable Barbarossa due to the speed of the units - way to many fast units that are cheap

The Russians just can't escape so the starting OOB is essentially wiped out, the winter doesn't help as any engagement means less Russian units for 42

I have only tried to defend "properly" in one game, I did hold the Moscow and most of the Don line but my opponent isn't an elite player

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Re: flybirda(Axis)vCarlos(Allies)

Post by Vokt » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:08 pm

For me it's important to focus on which are the flaws of enemy offensive and why it's moving so daringly fast. E. g. in this game, as I commented, Luftwaffe tacs were in Belarus at the time panzers were at the Don. Had the Soviets had more units to defend along the Don, it's unthinkable that flybird would have been able get to as far as Tambov in 1941 as he did. I have never reached in 1941 that city when playing with Axis, even before 4.0.

Trying to cross a well defended river line without the air support of tacs is almost suicidal. You need lots of units to keep going on the offensive and those who would succeed in forming a bridgehead are at a great risk of being destroyed in a counterattack. So it's not that you can easily dislodge well entrenched enemy positions along a river.

Before, in very early GS versions, I remember that Dnepr river used to serve as a forwarded Soviet defensive line. Sometimes this worked and Axis attack might result stalled there. Later, when harsher winter penalties were set, Dnepr wasn't anymore a reliable defensive line due to the still low morale of Soviet units by the time the Axis reach that river.

Cybvep
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Re: flybirda(Axis)vCarlos(Allies)

Post by Cybvep » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:22 pm

The game seems more fresh for some reason. Maybe it's because a bit stronger Axis in the early game opens up more strategies. IMO it's good that the Allied player needs to be more careful now, so let's wait for more data before changing anything.

duncanr
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Re: flybirda(Axis)vCarlos(Allies)

Post by duncanr » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:26 pm

the problem is you don't have enough units to form the line - its going to take a lot of working out around a few things:

1. are there sensible blocking points
2. can intermediate lines be used so ZOC's slow the advance
3. is there a specific aggressive counter attack point that can be employed

or some combination of

duncanr
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Re: flybirda(Axis)vCarlos(Allies)

Post by duncanr » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:06 am

or

Cavalry needs the Para treatment :-)
who remembers dozens of Allied para's descending on Fortress Europa :-)
they need limiting for sure, way to powerful in Barbarossa, and slowed down a bit as well

Vokt
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Re: flybirda(Axis)vCarlos(Allies)

Post by Vokt » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:39 am

If cavalry thing is seen as an issue (I never encountered that massive German cavalry build up) maybe we can set a "shared" build limit for both cavalry and motorized corps units. This way if the year limit is 6, you can build 3 motos and 3 calvary units without paying PP's penalty. Right now you can build 6 motos and 6 calvary corps and that's what might result a little bit excessive. This 12 highly mobile units in addition to the German armoured and mechs is what can make them to have increased mobility all over the Eastern front in 1941.

Peter Stauffenberg
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Re: flybirda(Axis)vCarlos(Allies)

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:14 pm

Shared motorised and cavalry will work. The western Allies have quite a few motorised units and will therefore build fewer cavalry. Germany have 4 motorised units from the start so little room for many cavalry units. USSR have no motorised units so lots of room for cavalry. As it should be.

bartek74
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Re: flybirda(Axis)vCarlos(Allies)

Post by bartek74 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:36 pm

Or maybe Cavalery units are to strong? Is quite hard to fight with them even with russian Tanks Corps or motorised units, maybe they should have strneght of infantry division???

flybird
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Re: flybirda(Axis)vCarlos(Allies)

Post by flybird » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:14 pm

T50
We started the whole offensive,A large number of Soviet Red Army around Moscow,Using multi tier defenses to slow us down,Our plan is to go back from the south to the east of Moscow,Search for loopholes on the enemy lines,The Soviet central city seems to have no defense
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Re: flybirda(Axis)vCarlos(Allies)

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:01 pm

Cavalry units aren't stronger than infantry units on defense. It's just attack in Clear hexes they have +1 ground attack and +1 shock attack.

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Re: flybirda(Axis)vCarlos(Allies)

Post by flybird » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:07 am

T51
Quality and quantity duel
In center,Spearhead of our arrival near Gorky,take tula again
On the south side,We cut off the connection between the Caucasus and Moscow and seized the field that was unguarded
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Vokt
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Re: flybirda(Axis)vCarlos(Allies)

Post by Vokt » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:38 pm

Again, I see a weak Luftwaffe (fighters are out of range, tacs are in hye south) supporting the thrust to Gorki and the Urals. Axis is being too daring on its attack to Moscow. I think that a strong Soviet counterattack with good air support could wipe out the whole panzer spearhead north of Tambov. Strong Soviet armoured force in Leningrad seemingly has been or it's going to be redeployed: those could be quickly railed and used elsewhere offensively.

duncanr
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Re: flybirda(Axis)vCarlos(Allies)

Post by duncanr » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:00 pm

TACs around Belgorod will have quite a bit of range - but yes I think a thrust east of Moscow has potential!

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flybirda(Axis)vCarlos(Allies)

Post by Vokt » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:10 pm

I was referring to the fact that German armoured group headed Gorki goes without fighter cover. They are vulnerable to a conterattack with massive air support. Soviet airforce hasn't suffered much attrition and maybe by now has been strengthened.

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