1000 Point Army

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Paisley
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Post by Paisley » Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:09 pm

Actually at 800 points I had virtually the full Roman list, (bar allies) and 22 shiny elite legion units. I may have missed out on a unit of light cavalry.

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Post by lpgamble » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:55 pm

I prefer smaller AP battles myself, but seems like a 1.5 * , 2* min/maxes. With that you would have 400-600 , 600-900 and 800-1200. Round any uneven numbers up. The problems would be in changes to the verification of lists , if map sizes can't hold that amount, and if your near any memory thresh holds.

76mm
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Post by 76mm » Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:19 am

Iaian, I appreciate your posting in the forum, but your response was rather patronizing for a couple of reasons:
iainmcneil wrote: As for maxing out the Elite legion - they are so expensive he cant have had anythign else.
Wrong. For an 800 point army, if you max out all other Roman troop types, and buy 22 elite legions, you still have points to spare. You are right that he "cannt have had anything else", but not because he bought 22 elite legions...he couldn't have anything else because of the poorly designed maximum limits for the various unit types. So, despite having the DAG, we in fact have only one 800 point Roman army--max out on everything else, and then get an all-elite legion main body. This is literally the only army people can choose (not counting allies).

iainmcneil wrote:If you went in to that frontally you are going to get anihiliated. You ened to take out teh flanks and avoid engaging where you can't win.
Well, duh, but on some of the maps you don't have a choice, depending on where your opponent places his army. The game I played was fun enough--once--although it was pretty plain that I would lose once the main bodies made contact. The plain fact is that having any opponent with an all-elite army is not only more difficult to play, it is simply less interesting (probably for both player, certainly for the non-Roman). And I know exactly what every 800 point Roman army will look like.

iainmcneil wrote:I'm assuming most of the people posting here are not used to playing tabletop games where you can pick any size using the same restructions we have in place here? I'm sure you'll get used to it :)
I don't want to get used to it--more likely, I will get tired of playing with the same DAG armies over and over again, stop playing, and stop buying new releases. And frankly, I don't care what people do on tabletops. Maybe they don't wnat to paint more little figures. Maybe if they agree with their opponent (and have enough figures...), they can ignore the arbitrary limits on unit types. This is a COMPUTER game and I think you should take advantage of the platform.

Moreover, I have yet to hear a single coherent argument for retaining the current maximum unit allocations for large armies rather than revising them to allow for a wider (and more realistic) range of army choices.

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Post by MesaDon » Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:06 pm

Okay lets go back to peace love and happiness. I feel that positive comments will sway the powers that be. As for me I love creating armies at the 600 or less and creating really strange combinations. Heck win or lose I don't care if it's fun .... it is a game not life and death (I think). Right now I am amazied that Slitherine people respond so frequently and make corrections quickly. Keep up the good work.

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Post by Zonso » Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:25 pm

Wow 1000 points? Ignoring the point value for the moment, what about the maps at that size? The largest I have played is 700 points and the map is way too small imo, it is simply a little wider with no change in depth at all, or if there is it is totally inadequate. The end result is you just mash the two Armies together, no real room to manuever at all and I don't just mean turning a flank. I wonder what people think now about the map size after playing a bit with the expansion.

Paisley
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Post by Paisley » Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:37 pm

I don't find that at all, at least not in the two thousand point battles I've played. there is less scope for wide flanking manoeuvres, certainly. But they are still possible, and I would argue much more historically plausible as the battles doen't fracture into little fights as easily.

I think if the game is to support 800+ pts (and why shouldn't it? It won't affect those who prefer smaller numbers of units in the least), then 800+ pt armies do need expanded lists - and the numbers of elite counters in the Late Republican Roman army should probably be capped at 12 (maybe even 6, probably only VII and X were even close to elite status at that time).

On a slightly different note, how is it that the Brutus/Cassius variant get elite legions? It seems to me that the themed lists aren't as yet tweaked sufficiently.

The support for this game thus far has been close to exemplary. I'm not asking for these things to be done overnight. or indeed in the next six months. But I can't see the harm in asking, nor in pointing out some oddities in the DAG system as it stands.

76mm
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Post by 76mm » Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:23 pm

I didn't mean to come across as too negative--this game is great, RoR and the DAG are great additions, and support has been solid. However, at some point before too long I hope the devs address this issue rather than telling us that we'll "get used to it...".

On the map sizes, I haven't played any 1000 pointers yet, but the maps are generally OK for 800 pts, although the several maps with various kinds of choke points in them make it hard for armies with lighter units.

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Seleucids seem to macx out at 869 points!

Post by batesmotel » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:03 pm

With all the variety of troop types allowed and the number of expensive options, I thought they would easily make 1000 points. Much to my surprise 869 seemed to be as high as I could get for the pre-166 list. Not having any allies allowed is part of the problem I suspect.

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Post by SRW1962 » Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:05 pm

I have played in a fair few 1,000pt army games and on a 50 x 30 map there is easily enough room to accomodate any army you could want to use. I am currently fighting a 1,000pt battle with my mate using my Armenian army vs Mid Republican Romans and as the screenshot will show there is loads of space despite the odd nature of the lakes on the map.

Image


I would like the idea of being able to field ALL armies at 1,000pts or even higher if wished as for myself at least the campaign potential is a major factor in having some larger games available. I can create them on the scenario designer but this is longwinded and tedious when it comes to renaming everything. As for being restricted when it comes to tabletop lists, that simply isn't so. I am a table top wargamer and have been for over 30 years now, I have never been restricted by any set of lists for any set of rules unless I choose to enter into wargames competition games when I obviously would have the constraints of the lists. I choose not to do that and as such although I do have FOG table top version and ALL of the lists, these I use as a guide rather than the last word on how my armies should look. I do a LOT of research for my armies before I paint them and put them on the table top and I reserve the right to field an army based upon a historical prototype rather than to religiously adhere to a set of competition lists, no matter how good the lists may be.

Having said that I accpet that for league games etc. the lists should be adhered to, however a simple override facility would be good for anyone who wants to play more historically based games or campaign gmaes without having to go through the scenario editor, unless of course the scenario editor could incorporate a facility to quickly name all the units (copy and paste facility?).

For me and my two main wargaming buddies, FOG digital is brilliant because it IS real table top wargaming but on a pc screen, all we need now is the same freedom of expression for creating armies and playing games as table top wargaming gives, but as quick as the DAG puts together a game.

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Post by Yann » Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:31 pm

Just for information, I usually play with 800 points in tabletop wargaming and, so far I know, most of the french tournament ask for 800 points. I would be happy to be able to have the same list in our game and in tabletop wargaming. I don't verifye at this point if my tabletop wargaming can be the same in our game. I will do it soon.

All the best

Yann

76mm
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Post by 76mm » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:19 am

OK, I was trying to create a couple of new armies last night and gave up in frustration.

Tried to create an 800 point Pyrrhic army, but I couldn't get past about 650 points, so had to scrap.

Tried to create an 800 Ptolomaic army, but noticed that the number of Guard Phalanx unit is capped at 3 regardless of whether the army size is 400 or 800 (while Roman commanders get 22 elite legions).

Other than a less than reassuring suggestion that we would "get used to it", there has been no response from the devs on this topic--are the army lists going to be fixed at some point, or what?

Paisley
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Post by Paisley » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:38 am

It may be that the size limits for some armies are historically based. Pyrrhus for instance could never field as many men as Pompey did at Pharsalus. And I can see that if historically only 3 Ptolemaic foot units could be counted as elite, then the cap is fair enough.

But I agree the all elite Roman infantry option is a bit daft (something I freely admit to abusing merrily). As I said elsewhere a cap of six (Caesar's VII and X) would seem better to me, maybe even stretched to 12. All the rest being superior seems fair enough mind. But I'd also like the option of fielding (say) 24 superior legion counters or (say) 30 average.

I also think that elite units may be a point or two too cheap - but to be fair the designers have had much longer than me to assess a fair balance.

76mm
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Post by 76mm » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:55 am

Paisley wrote:It may be that the size limits for some armies are historically based. Pyrrhus for instance could never field as many men as Pompey did at Pharsalus. And I can see that if historically only 3 Ptolemaic foot units could be counted as elite, then the cap is fair enough.
But I thought that units do not represent a fixed amount of men? So in other words a 10,000 man unit could be represented by one 10k man BG, 2 5k man BGs, 4 2.5k man BGs, etc. So an 800 point army is not necessarily "bigger" than a 400 point army, the units are just broken down into smaller sizes.

Therefore, while I can see the point of capping elite/superior units at a certain % of total army size, in this case there should logically be more elite units available in a 800 pt army than a 400 pt army. Capping them at "3" regardless of whether the army is 400, 800, or whatever points does not seem justified, or at least I have not heard any convincing justification.

Second, on your point about size limits being historically based: I don't agree with this argument for a couple of reasons:
--as stated above, point values do not necessarily indicate a "bigger" army; and
--the whole point of DAG battles is to play non-historical battles, otherwise you wouldn't be able to play as Carthaginian vs Parthian, etc. While I agree that the lists should be restricted to retain the essential characteristics of the relevant armies (ie, no Gallic phalanx armies, etc.), in my opinion many of the current lists are simply broken for the reasons described. In any event, I have not heard any convincing rationale for how the lists are currently set up.

Paisley
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Post by Paisley » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:05 am

I'm not saying that would be a great reason, just that it might be the reason. And while counters can vary, the default is 1500:1000:500:20 so if the lists are constructed with that in mind in a way it'd be fair enough. Also, if the designers assumed 400 pt battles to be the norm they may not have investigated the problems encountered above 600 points.

76mm
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Post by 76mm » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:46 am

Paisley wrote:And while counters can vary, the default is 1500:1000:500:20 so if the lists are constructed with that in mind in a way it'd be fair enough.
Not sure that I follow, but I think you're saying that all the units in the DAG in fact represent fixed sizes (which makes sense)? If so, that weakens my first point to a certain extent, but still don't see an argument that if Pyrrhus could only field 15k men, the DAG army should max out at 650 pts.
Paisley wrote:Also, if the designers assumed 400 pt battles to be the norm they may not have investigated the problems encountered above 600 points.
Fair enough, and no big deal if this is how the lists came out, and will be tweaked at some point. But so far no indication that the lists will be fixed, or indeed, that they are broken in the first place (at least for armies of 800 pts and up).

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