New Evades

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TheGrayMouser
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New Evades

Post by TheGrayMouser » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:48 am

Here is my ist tentative thought on the new evade patterns.

Playing a game where I have Superior LS cavalry.. Normally usch troops can eat medium infantry alive... However a single medium troop can basically neggate an entire cavalry corp by charging and forcing them to evade , now prior 1.28, no issue , you simply charge home next turn and teach that unit a lesson. Now that evaders face away, theoretically, you could have a situation where your cavalry can never engage medium troops as they are only one hex slower....
Some lists like macs and Carthos only have LS cavalry
Doesnt seam quite right that mediums should be able to chase off cavalry with such ease and not have to worry about a counter attack....
The only solution is to move your cavalry 4 hexes away from a potential medium foot target and then cahrge the next turn, assuming they dont run away backwards two hexes...

batesmotel
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Re: New Evades

Post by batesmotel » Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:52 am

TheGrayMouser wrote:Here is my ist tentative thought on the new evade patterns.

Playing a game where I have Superior LS cavalry.. Normally usch troops can eat medium infantry alive... However a single medium troop can basically neggate an entire cavalry corp by charging and forcing them to evade , now prior 1.28, no issue , you simply charge home next turn and teach that unit a lesson. Now that evaders face away, theoretically, you could have a situation where your cavalry can never engage medium troops as they are only one hex slower....
Some lists like macs and Carthos only have LS cavalry
Doesnt seam quite right that mediums should be able to chase off cavalry with such ease and not have to worry about a counter attack....
The only solution is to move your cavalry 4 hexes away from a potential medium foot target and then cahrge the next turn, assuming they dont run away backwards two hexes...
What kind of medium foot are they evading from? Normally average bow, sword horse archers do not evade from MF so I'm very surprised that superior LS cavalry would be evading.

Chris
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Blathergut
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Post by Blathergut » Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:54 am

protected drilled offensive spears I think it was....maybe those superior jls armoured dudes the mid-republicans have...but i think protected spears

TheGrayMouser
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Post by TheGrayMouser » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:03 am

I believe they were those Thuroperoi (definately spelled wrong)

I have no problem with light cavalry evading and the mechanic but Superior Light Spear cavalry ? these basically are the heavy cav units of all the earlier lists... They evaded before as well, I think, but now they face the wrong way and yikes... How is a cartho army going to outflank the Romans if one meduim Liguran peasant unit can force evade the carthos best units, taking up an xtra turn to get facing the right way again!

Blathergut
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Post by Blathergut » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:08 am

:twisted:

ain't complaining !!

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Post by deadtorius » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:27 am

As per the TT rules when you evade you turn 180 and run to what was your rear and end up facing away from the unit that caused the evade. The only time you run away and end facing is with a break off.
Now your spear armed cav will have to run away and then attempt to move off and turn back or as you said, sit far enough back to not be charged and then charge in.

So the PC game is one step closer to the TT game. Think how happy all those players who are on the receiving end of those charges must feel now :wink:

batesmotel
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Post by batesmotel » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:30 am

TheGrayMouser wrote:I believe they were those Thuroperoi (definately spelled wrong)

I have no problem with light cavalry evading and the mechanic but Superior Light Spear cavalry ? these basically are the heavy cav units of all the earlier lists... They evaded before as well, I think, but now they face the wrong way and yikes... How is a cartho army going to outflank the Romans if one meduim Liguran peasant unit can force evade the carthos best units, taking up an xtra turn to get facing the right way again!
I just set up a scenario with extraordinarii and with thureophoroi. The superior LS carthaginian cavalry did not evade from either.

Are you playing Cynocephalae? There are HF Thorakatai in that scenario that look like MF with three figures per BG or another scenario with the same problem? Make sure that what you think are MF really are classified as MF.

Chris
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TheGrayMouser
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Post by TheGrayMouser » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:39 am

batesmotel wrote:
TheGrayMouser wrote:I believe they were those Thuroperoi (definately spelled wrong)

I have no problem with light cavalry evading and the mechanic but Superior Light Spear cavalry ? these basically are the heavy cav units of all the earlier lists... They evaded before as well, I think, but now they face the wrong way and yikes... How is a cartho army going to outflank the Romans if one meduim Liguran peasant unit can force evade the carthos best units, taking up an xtra turn to get facing the right way again!
I just set up a scenario with extraordinarii and with thureophoroi. The superior LS carthaginian cavalry did not evade from either.

Are you playing Cynocephalae? There are HF Thorakatai in that scenario that look like MF with three figures per BG or another scenario with the same problem? Make sure that what you think are MF really are classified as MF.

Chris
No DAG battle vs Blathy.. he is Mid Repubs so all his mediums are spear or light spear......

Edit
Played around with editor with all kinds of variables and i cant repeat it. Very odd... I'd think i was imagining it but my opponent saw it too.(unless he is humouring me) The only thing I can think is the cavalry was in a bad going terrain? I reloaded the game and it didnt appear to happen in an area with non clear hexes... Oh well, glad it is only a fluke, or a mirage :D

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Post by rbodleyscott » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:09 am

Nevertheless, I look forward to the promised update that allows potential evaders to be given aggression level orders. Will that be in the next update?

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Post by beserko » Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:49 am

I love it ....... Run, you peasents runnnnn! I fought the anglo-irish with the Burgundans. Lots of charges but the thing I like is they turn around and I can nip at their heels

TheGrayMouser
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Post by TheGrayMouser » Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:10 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:Nevertheless, I look forward to the promised update that allows potential evaders to be given aggression level orders. Will that be in the next update?

Per the roadmap that is planned for the Swords und Scimitars expansion, so some time to go :(

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Post by batesmotel » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:11 pm

TheGrayMouser wrote:
rbodleyscott wrote:Nevertheless, I look forward to the promised update that allows potential evaders to be given aggression level orders. Will that be in the next update?

Per the roadmap that is planned for the Swords und Scimitars expansion, so some time to go :(
Other stuff in the road map was done ahead of schedule so the evade level may not have to wait that long. Hopefully not.

Chris
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TheGrayMouser
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Post by TheGrayMouser » Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:18 pm

Another ? re the new evades:
Even though the roadmap does not state this, I think several players in the Beta advsied tha w the new routines it was now going to be very damagerous for light foot to get too close to cavalry as when they evade they can get caught...
I havent seen this in any battles i have played ie my cavalry is a hex away and charges enemy Lf, Lf evades away 5 hexes ... usually my own cavalry only advances 1 hex, even thought they tech could move 2 more w/o going over there max unit allowance....
has anyone seen lights getting caught with more frequency?, or am I imagining this was added to the game :oops:

Blathergut
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Post by Blathergut » Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:49 pm

1. Had a Roman HF pursue 4 hexes! :shock:

2. I've been keeping the LF right in front of the heavies so nothing there. Have had lost of LH charge and scatter my LF but it usually is two hexes away at start so doesn't get caught.

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Post by deeter » Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:53 pm

Only once so far. My Tarantines charged some LH bow who evaded several hexes away. The Tarantines pursued and caught them in the rear, routing them.

Deeter

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Post by TheGrayMouser » Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:06 pm

So you need to be 1 hex away to possibly catch?


**Blathergut: that should not be happening , a unit should not advance beyond its max regular movement
of course break offs and chasing routers seam to have there own set of rules oddities!

batesmotel
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Post by batesmotel » Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:09 pm

TheGrayMouser wrote:Another ? re the new evades:
Even though the roadmap does not state this, I think several players in the Beta advsied tha w the new routines it was now going to be very damagerous for light foot to get too close to cavalry as when they evade they can get caught...
I havent seen this in any battles i have played ie my cavalry is a hex away and charges enemy Lf, Lf evades away 5 hexes ... usually my own cavalry only advances 1 hex, even thought they tech could move 2 more w/o going over there max unit allowance....
has anyone seen lights getting caught with more frequency?, or am I imagining this was added to the game :oops:
I think the danger is LF getting too close to LH. Cavalry moves the same speed as LF so isn't going to catch it normally. LH starting a hex away normally should since it goes 5 to the LF 4. The TT rules have a variable move component for evaders/routers and for pursuers/chargers whose target is evading so you don't know exactly how far you can run away or chase. I don't think the PC version includes that yet although you can see similar effects with troops some times charging multiple times when their original target evades. I haven't figured out exactly how that works so it always seems pretty random in games I've played.


Chris
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Xiggy
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Post by Xiggy » Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:17 pm

The evade logic as far as catching lights is different. I just don't have a feel for it yet. A few patches ago a random element was added to allow you to catch evaders. I am not sure if friendly troops cost movement or if there is a stand in the last hex of an evade movement, then the LF will stop 1 hex short and not exceed its max movement.

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Post by deeter » Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:50 pm

In my exapmles,the Tarantines move into contact. The LH evaded 5 (I believe) and the Tarantines followed all the way. No one else was near. Will have to play some more games to figure this out.

Deeter

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Post by grumblefish » Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:27 pm

well it was written that spartans could catch skirmishers so I hope that evades are turned off when attacked by a spartan hvy inf unit.

:P

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