New Evades

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petergarnett
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Post by petergarnett » Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:50 pm

Not sure Iphicrates would agree with that :wink:

Malty666
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Post by Malty666 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:23 pm

The new evades are much better - they allow you to shoo off light troops and better represent the table top game (where you end up facing away). You have to be careful with your javelin troops as they can end up being caught.

And watch out for regular cavalry forming a net around your light troops - they can get easily trapped and cut to ribbons. Ah, I love the sound of screaming archers :twisted:

I don't think passing through troops costs you extra movement - just like it doesn't on table top.

And - for that matter - how come LH can pass thru other cavalry. In the tabletop version they can't!
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TheGrayMouser
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Post by TheGrayMouser » Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:55 pm

I really enjoy the new evade logic now that I have played enough games to get a feel for it , have caught quite a few LF and hit em from behind, although have been on the receiveing end as well....

Gersen
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Post by Gersen » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:25 am

TheGrayMouser wrote:I really enjoy the new evade logic now that I have played enough games to get a feel for it , have caught quite a few LF and hit em from behind, although have been on the receiveing end as well....
I'm not! Not yet at least. Haven't got my head how javelinmen can be of any use anymore. Dutifully, I send forward a skirmish line against infantry, and now only half of them come back and I've lost 6, 8, 10... points. Archers and slingers are safer. Doesn't feel intuitively right.

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Post by Morbio » Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:59 am

Gersen wrote:
TheGrayMouser wrote:I really enjoy the new evade logic now that I have played enough games to get a feel for it , have caught quite a few LF and hit em from behind, although have been on the receiveing end as well....
I'm not! Not yet at least. Haven't got my head how javelinmen can be of any use anymore. Dutifully, I send forward a skirmish line against infantry, and now only half of them come back and I've lost 6, 8, 10... points. Archers and slingers are safer. Doesn't feel intuitively right.
If we ignore the bug in the system (introduced in 1.30) that allowed MF and HF unlimited distance pursuits, which should hopefully be fixed anytime soon, then the only troops that will catch LF are other LF, LH and Cavalry. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that these troops, particularly the LH, should be able to catch the LF on occasion, the previous logic made poor LF almost impossible to kill. The thing now is that you must consider what the enemy has in the vicinity before sending your skirmishers forward. If he has LH nearby then you run the risk of them being caught. This forces the commanders of both sides to work with units in a co-ordinated fashion - using LF to screen troops and harass the enemy, but also using LH and other LF to chase off the enemy skirmishers.

I think this may be even better in the future, when it will allow some greater control on whether or not units evade, although this may only apply to horse units.
Last edited by Morbio on Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Gersen » Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:09 pm

Perfect reply, Morbio. I was unaware of the MF/HF bug. Once fixed, it will make a lot more sense. No point sending skirmishers against LF and Cav, but we shouldn't be so vulnerable to the slower units. It's caught me out a number of times, so until it's fixed, my DAG armies will be archer heavy.

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Post by TheGrayMouser » Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:56 pm

I have not run into the Heavy /Medium foot bug as of yet in terms of unlimited moves, what I have seen is a reversion of moving beyond their max movement points to the way it was pre-1.28, for example when a heavy foot anarchies to chae a lf and ends up moving 3 hexes total
Hopefully this is fixed in the next update.


Gersen: I have noticed the logic of catching LF with other LF or LH is more intuitive than "technical"
There is obviosuly a random factor thrown in but also some things you can do that appear to increase your chances
*moving to contact vs enemy light foot from angles other than their front
*forcing an evade that is not directly back toward the enemies main battle line ie if the evade causes the unit to run parrallel to both players battle line, it seems the chance to catch is greater
*having rough terrian behind the evader also appears to allow catching more often
*light horse lancers almost are guaranteed to catch everyhing! ie those Alexandrian Prodromoi

These of course are subjective observations I have made, others amay disagree,

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Post by iversonjm » Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:08 pm

The bug allows units that charge into a string of evading units to keep pursuing as long as another evade-capable units exists in the charge path, i.e. if there is a string of six evade capable units, the unit will continue for 6 hexes, even if a HF unit. I don't mind a variable move (i.e. possibility of 1 extra hex coupled with a possibility of 1 less hex move), but obviously the bug will need to be fixed.
TheGrayMouser wrote:I have not run into the Heavy /Medium foot bug as of yet in terms of unlimited moves, what I have seen is a reversion of moving beyond their max movement points to the way it was pre-1.28, for example when a heavy foot anarchies to chae a lf and ends up moving 3 hexes total
Hopefully this is fixed in the next update.


Gersen: I have noticed the logic of catching LF with other LF or LH is more intuitive than "technical"
There is obviosuly a random factor thrown in but also some things you can do that appear to increase your chances
*moving to contact vs enemy light foot from angles other than their front
*forcing an evade that is not directly back toward the enemies main battle line ie if the evade causes the unit to run parrallel to both players battle line, it seems the chance to catch is greater
*having rough terrian behind the evader also appears to allow catching more often
*light horse lancers almost are guaranteed to catch everyhing! ie those Alexandrian Prodromoi

These of course are subjective observations I have made, others amay disagree,

Gersen
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Post by Gersen » Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:15 pm

Ah,

This is not quite what I am refering to (though I have seen this occasionally). My issues lies with a feeling (I have no figures to back this up), that since 1.2.8, it seems that it is easier to catch evaders than before. Particularly when they have their backs to the enemy after evading.

Going back to my intuitive view of this, you would have thought that skirmishers (even undrilled) are taught the basics of running away and facing the right direction when the bad guys get too close.

I am still learning, and will take GrayMousers' advice... particularly as his Macedonians, and my Spartans are currently knocking seven bells out of each other at the moment. :)

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Post by batesmotel » Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:11 pm

iversonjm wrote:The bug allows units that charge into a string of evading units to keep pursuing as long as another evade-capable units exists in the charge path, i.e. if there is a string of six evade capable units, the unit will continue for 6 hexes, even if a HF unit. I don't mind a variable move (i.e. possibility of 1 extra hex coupled with a possibility of 1 less hex move), but obviously the bug will need to be fixed.
To my knowledge the bug with pursuing multiple times seems to be limited to games begun prior to 1.3.0. If you see this in a game started under 1.3.0, please report this specific fact in the technical support forum. Hopefully it is a transient issue rather than a real bug that needs to be fixed.

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deadtorius
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Post by deadtorius » Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:51 pm

I have managed to catch a lot of LF units in the rear with my LH. Also I found if you have your units surrounding a LF/LH unit and charge them they will stand and die. It is much easier to catch them now.

As for the LH being able to move through friendly units I brought that up way back in the original beta and was told it was a dev decision to implement, forget the exact reason why. May have been due to massive bursting through friends and excessive disruptions. That was the same reason they took out a cohesion loss for a flank charge in the PC game, back in beta we were charging flanks like crazy and your enemy was losing cohesion on a massive scale. That was a game play decision. There are a few things that the devs made different from the TT rules That I have found.

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Post by Blathergut » Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:53 pm

batesmotel wrote:
iversonjm wrote:The bug allows units that charge into a string of evading units to keep pursuing as long as another evade-capable units exists in the charge path, i.e. if there is a string of six evade capable units, the unit will continue for 6 hexes, even if a HF unit. I don't mind a variable move (i.e. possibility of 1 extra hex coupled with a possibility of 1 less hex move), but obviously the bug will need to be fixed.
To my knowledge the bug with pursuing multiple times seems to be limited to games begun prior to 1.3.0. If you see this in a game started under 1.3.0, please report this specific fact in the technical support forum. Hopefully it is a transient issue rather than a real bug that needs to be fixed.

Chris
This is not just pre-1.3.0...have definitely seen it since and I do believe I posted in tech where it has been mentioned.

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Post by Blathergut » Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:54 pm

I like how the evade works now: LH tries to evade > ooopps...something is in my way > hit in derriere :twisted:

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Post by deadtorius » Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:57 pm

Hit in the derrière and dies in the process. I don't think any LF unit that has been caught in an evade has survived so far, they all seem to break.
Send the lights out to stop your opponents double moves, but pull them back when the other side gets close or the LH come out to play

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