Tactical Tips 01: Fighting the Bospos

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Blathergut
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Tactical Tips 01: Fighting the Bospos

Post by Blathergut » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:07 am

So, how does your typical Roman commander fight the typical Bosporan swarm of LH bows and Cav lancers? Any tactical types from the experienced souls out there?

1. Their horse need room to evade...herd them in somehow. Hmmmm...easier said than done.
2. Pin with cheap LF and then hit with heavier? Hmmmm...sometimes takes two turns to get said heaviers there...unfortunately for the sacrificial LF.

So...are the Bospos the better army given how FoG PC works with the large maps and seemingly endless hassle shooting opportunities?

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Re: Tactical Tips 01: Fighting the Bospos

Post by petergarnett » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:37 am

Blathergut wrote:So, how does your typical Roman commander fight the typical Bosporan swarm of LH bows and Cav lancers? Any tactical types from the experienced souls out there?

1. Their horse need room to evade...herd them in somehow. Hmmmm...easier said than done.
2. Pin with cheap LF and then hit with heavier? Hmmmm...sometimes takes two turns to get said heaviers there...unfortunately for the sacrificial LF.

So...are the Bospos the better army given how FoG PC works with the large maps and seemingly endless hassle shooting opportunities?
Ask Ironclad - his romans just beat my bosporans despite my virtually surrounding him. His cats took an age to kill which didn't help.

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Post by TheGrayMouser » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:52 am

Hey Peter, Blatherut should have added he is referring to Mid Republicans, not late.... No cats available!

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Post by Blathergut » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:44 am

Any thoughts on either flavour of Romans is welcome.

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Post by andersm73 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:24 pm

I've given some thought to this myself, trying to lose the initiative by not taking an IC and limiting your skirmishers might be a good tactic, to try and make most use out of the new double move allowance, hemming in the Bosporans as quickly as possible.

cheers
Matt

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Post by TheGrayMouser » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:53 pm

Here are my thoughts

I dont think the terrain matters , even if you get a hill to defend on you cant sit there with all the enemy missle fire.. For the most part rough terraign will hamper your HF more so than the Bospos

I dont think you can drive them off the map, after all, lancers (and they can get 12) dont evade and woe to you if you initiate a charge vs lancers with impact foot
The problem is lancers can hit any part of a Mid Roman line with combat odds in there favour, you also cant bring the fight to them with any unit in the arsenal which automatically gives them the initiate

You cant sacrafice your lights trying to pin and catch his lights as most Bospo armies will have 10-20 bp's higher

Boxing them in is the key, i think , however not by driving straight up the map....

Will need to test out a tactic later....

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Post by andersm73 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:13 pm

Have you tried using a Numidian ally for access to a good number of Javelin armed LH?

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Post by TheGrayMouser » Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:24 pm

andersm73 wrote:Have you tried using a Numidian ally for access to a good number of Javelin armed LH?
Hmm... My gut tells me at lower point levels 400-500, taking an ally with Mid Repub's is a waste of resources, their strength is the legions.....

Now at 650 ap I totally agree, I take the Numidian and Roman elephant, combined with 10 or so LH Javelins and some mediums you have a very mobile and flexible attack force that can keep cats at bay.. (although the new evade rules might reduce the effectiveness

Unfortunately most league/campaign and even friendly games are fought at 500 ap's

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Post by Xiggy » Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:39 pm

The first thing to remember is the LH cant hurt you. They are like a mosquito. So attack his lancers in force. Your heavy foot will outnumber his lancers and they will break off at inopportune times for him breaking up his line and letting you get 2 on 1 and 3 on one. Once most of his lancers are engaged, they you can hurd his lights. Be careful if he brings his armored offensive spear foot. They can be a problem, but they move so slowly, that the battle will be over by the time he gets them to the battle. If you can attack a lh with cheap LF and pin it all the better, but you will lose the light and he will as well. He has more break points, so a 1 for 1 exchange is in his favor.

I would go after his lancers and at least tie them up, killing most of them. Then chase his lights off the board or pin them. Try to use terrain, like hills. I know that is counter intuitive, but it is the same method used to beat the Parthians.

Try to force him to fight on a large front. He can beat you on a narrow front.

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Post by batesmotel » Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:47 pm

TheGrayMouser wrote:Here are my thoughts

I dont think the terrain matters , even if you get a hill to defend on you cant sit there with all the enemy missle fire.. For the most part rough terraign will hamper your HF more so than the Bospos

I dont think you can drive them off the map, after all, lancers (and they can get 12) dont evade and woe to you if you initiate a charge vs lancers with impact foot
The problem is lancers can hit any part of a Mid Roman line with combat odds in there favour, you also cant bring the fight to them with any unit in the arsenal which automatically gives them the initiate

You cant sacrafice your lights trying to pin and catch his lights as most Bospo armies will have 10-20 bp's higher

Boxing them in is the key, i think , however not by driving straight up the map....

Will need to test out a tactic later....
Veteran legionaries should be able to stand up to lancers. The Principes/hastati are even in impact and melee and the Triarii are at a +POA in both. The trick is to force the Bosporan lancers to charge into your superior/elite legionaries and to make sure the legionaries are supported so they will be unlikely to fail the cohesion test if they should lose to the lancers in impact. With luck you can then use MF or Roman cavalry to get on the flanks of the lancers in order to put them at a disadvantage in melee. I've had LRR legionaries stand up quite handily to an all out assault of Seleucid cataphracts plus Parthian allied ones to give them about as many cataphracts as the Bosporans get lancers, and the cataphracts are nastier due to being heavily armoured. One further thing to remember is that it isn't alway wrong to decide to charge superior legionaries into cataphracts. It does leave you at a -POA for impact but the legionaries will probably survive the cohesion test and improving the odds in melee may well be worth the impact at a disadvantage.

Chris
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Post by batesmotel » Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:51 pm

Xiggy wrote:The first thing to remember is the LH cant hurt you. They are like a mosquito. So attack his lancers in force. Your heavy foot will outnumber his lancers and they will break off at inopportune times for him breaking up his line and letting you get 2 on 1 and 3 on one. Once most of his lancers are engaged, they you can hurd his lights. Be careful if he brings his armored offensive spear foot. They can be a problem, but they move so slowly, that the battle will be over by the time he gets them to the battle. If you can attack a lh with cheap LF and pin it all the better, but you will lose the light and he will as well. He has more break points, so a 1 for 1 exchange is in his favor.

I would go after his lancers and at least tie them up, killing most of them. Then chase his lights off the board or pin them. Try to use terrain, like hills. I know that is counter intuitive, but it is the same method used to beat the Parthians.

Try to force him to fight on a large front. He can beat you on a narrow front.
The Bosporans do not get any armoured offensive spears. They can get up to 6 HF, average protected offensive spears which we know are terribly effective against the Romans. (Just ask the Carthaginian players.) The city militia can be armoured but they are either light spear, sword or impact foot, sword, average, so effectively inferior imitation legionaries.

Chris
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Post by Xiggy » Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:55 pm

The mid romans are protected, and armored so It is a wash if you can get them (HF armored) engaged with the protected romans. (Late romans kill them) I was referring to the militia, I stand corrected on their weapons. They do ok if supported. They would be a group of units I would kill if roman. But it would take time. They do hold out for a long time, letting the horse help them.

The militia HF can be armored. (3-6 of them - I used them last night)
Last edited by Xiggy on Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by TheGrayMouser » Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:56 pm

hey Chris, that might be true of late Romans but Mid's dont have any elites

I have found that a lancer can charge right into good going Hastati/Princeps whether average or superior and they get the poa, if the lancer rolls bad or fairs poorly in the melee, they break off and can charge in again.....
I have never had a HF do well charging into a Lancer

I can face and generally beat cataphract armies with Mids , but it is always a hairy experiance, Bospos though are more difficult, likly as the lancers are so much more maneuverable

The idea of getting the Roman cavalry in to the flanks is good but Bospos will have so many LF/LH litering the filed you generally have to charge into these guys to drive them off, now your cavalry is out of position and the fleeting moment that one can maybe get that rear attack is gone...

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Post by batesmotel » Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:08 pm

TheGrayMouser wrote:hey Chris, that might be true of late Romans but Mid's dont have any elites
I thought veteran triarii are elite. Especially with offensive spear they are quite effective.
I have found that a lancer can charge right into good going Hastati/Princeps whether average or superior and they get the poa, if the lancer rolls bad or fairs poorly in the melee, they break off and can charge in again.....
I have never had a HF do well charging into a Lancer

I can face and generally beat cataphract armies with Mids , but it is always a hairy experiance, Bospos though are more difficult, likly as the lancers are so much more maneuverable

The idea of getting the Roman cavalry in to the flanks is good but Bospos will have so many LF/LH litering the filed you generally have to charge into these guys to drive them off, now your cavalry is out of position and the fleeting moment that one can maybe get that rear attack is gone...
At least with the new evade rules it is easier and safer to drive off skirmishers, especially the poor LF. This should help make things easier.

Chris
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Post by TheGrayMouser » Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:19 pm

"I thought veteran triarii are elite. Especially with offensive spear they are quite effective. "

They are but you can only get 2 max and they cant be every where!
They get even worse odds trying to charge into lancers than impact foot...


As for easier with the new evade rules?
Ask Blathergut how his Romans are fairing , he he

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Post by Xiggy » Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:21 pm

I have seen the mid Bosporan wins in the various leagues and tourney's. I am wondering what the force mix is for these armies. I Bosporan's are a very flexible list.

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Post by TheGrayMouser » Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:32 pm

i think the worst thing a Bospo player can do is take all the heavy foot when fighting a Roman army, just gives the legions a nice target to latch onto and destroy

As for the LF, they can hurt you... Not immedielty but the attrition will destotroy you by late game when seemingly ok units auto rout after one turn in melee because they have been so depleted
(in my current game about 8 light foot auto routed a lone cut of Hastati in 3 turns)

Spread out , i dont think is the way to go

I really think Mid Romans have a harder time vs Bospos as opposed to Parthians is because of the agilty of the lancers, 1 xtra movement point makes a big differnence

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Post by davouthojo » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:43 pm

The poor LF help the Bosphorans, until we get this quirk eradicated when you can set evade aggressiveness.

For Parthians, whenever you are out of range of their cats, you can pin their horse archers with a LF and beat them up.
There are no soft BP targets for the Bosphorans.

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Post by batesmotel » Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:29 pm

TheGrayMouser wrote:"I thought veteran triarii are elite. Especially with offensive spear they are quite effective. "

They are but you can only get 2 max and they cant be every where!
They get even worse odds trying to charge into lancers than impact foot...
They should be exactly the same -POA if they charge lancers as the impact foot are.
As for easier with the new evade rules?
Ask Blathergut how his Romans are fairing , he he
I didn't say the new evade rules made it easy, just easier.

Chris
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Post by batesmotel » Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:33 pm

Xiggy wrote:I have seen the mid Bosporan wins in the various leagues and tourney's. I am wondering what the force mix is for these armies. I Bosporan's are a very flexible list.
The flexibility is what makes the Bosporans very effective. You can get a reasonable amount of decent foot HF and MF to use against opponents where it will be effective but do not have to where it won't be, e.g. against Mid Republican Romans. The Bosporans are powerful because there are so many useful tools in their arsenal, not just because they get cavalry lancers or because they get horse archers or poor LF.

The Skythians and Sakas in the the IF beta both get more horse archers than the Bosporans do. The Sarmations/Rhoxolani get lots more lancers. But none of these have the flexibility and options that the Bosporans have so will probably not be as flexible or as much fun to play.

Chris
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