When can LF attack?

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76mm
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When can LF attack?

Post by 76mm » Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:47 am

I've played many many games now and still do not understand at all why sometimes LF can attack other LF, and sometimes it can't...in other words, sometimes my LF cannot move next to, and attack, other LF, and other times it can. Have no idea why... Is this addressed in the online help somewhere?

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Post by Xiggy » Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:58 pm

I am as confused as you are on this issue.

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Post by gabeeg » Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:55 pm

whew...glad someone asked. I was too embarrased to ask, having played 50+ games and still not understanding this mystery :)

Hopefully someone can enlighten us...

deeter
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Post by deeter » Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:02 am

One thing is consistant. Javelin-armed LF can attack any skirmishers, even LH -- something I often forget. They can also attack very disordered troops of all types. Other LF can only attack each other and some fragged types.

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Post by TheGrayMouser » Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:10 am

Actually that is part of it but what 76MM was asking is sometimes you cant move LF next to another LF to attack...

Basically as i undertsand it, light foot , whether drilled or undrilled cannot move into the ZOC of an enemy unit, ie attack, from any angle if they have to make a hex face changing to do so
(I actually think this is true of all troops(maybe light horse are the exeption?) , except that it isnt as noticable as LF have such a longer move that it SEEMs they should be able to attack it most situations)

I made a little test scenario to see what situations they can and cant and the only thing i could notice in effect was the above.....

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Post by deeter » Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:24 am

Of course! Initial facing is critical to being able to attack. Applies to LH as well.

Deeter

76mm
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Post by 76mm » Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:25 am

deeter wrote:One thing is consistant. Javelin-armed LF can attack any skirmishers, even LH -- something I often forget. They can also attack very disordered troops of all types. Other LF can only attack each other and some fragged types.
Javelins cannot always attack other LF and LH--sometimes hexes adjacent to them don't "light up" and so I cannot move next to them. So it depends on facing? I guess that makes drilled LF javelins signficantly better than undrilled...

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Post by TheGrayMouser » Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:36 am

76mm wrote:
deeter wrote:One thing is consistant. Javelin-armed LF can attack any skirmishers, even LH -- something I often forget. They can also attack very disordered troops of all types. Other LF can only attack each other and some fragged types.
Javelins cannot always attack other LF and LH--sometimes hexes adjacent to them don't "light up" and so I cannot move next to them. So it depends on facing? I guess that makes drilled LF javelins signficantly better than undrilled...
It hard to describe wha I posted but , yes, if a unit has to change a hexside in its "aproach" in order to get "adjacent" ( and thus attack) an enemy unit. then it cant (ie the hex wont light up)
For light foot, it doesnt matter if they are drilled or undrilled, they act the same

76mm
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Post by 76mm » Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:58 am

TheGrayMouser wrote:For light foot, it doesnt matter if they are drilled or undrilled, they act the same
But it should be easier to have drilled LF face in the right direction so that they can attack next turn?

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Post by TheGrayMouser » Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:30 am

76mm wrote:
TheGrayMouser wrote:For light foot, it doesnt matter if they are drilled or undrilled, they act the same
But it should be easier to have drilled LF face in the right direction so that they can attack next turn?

Should they? Dont know, that would be a ? for the developers... They dont have any differnce in game as far as I can tell... Also, you can see in various lists you can buy the drilled or undrilled version of various types of lite foot that are otherwise exactly the same and they cost the same AP's

Also, when you move any LF and fire your troop automatically changes face to the target (although you get a 1-poa if they wernt in your frontal arc before you fire)....

76mm
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Post by 76mm » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:04 am

This isn't a question for the developers...what I'm saying is that drilled troops can change facing easier than undrilled troops, so it should be an advantage to have drilled LF rather than undrilled. but if LF auto changes facing when you shoot, this is really only an advantage for LF javelins, which can move further than they can shoot...

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Post by Scutarii » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:12 am

For me drilled units dont have a great advantage over undrilled units because change facing of an undrilled unit before move it dont change his path and dont open new melee options and undrilled can change facing after move if they dont change facing in the move.

For LF units i think that the key is in ZOC because i have LF in enemy LF flank but cant melee because the LF unit is supported by a HF unit... maybe update the actual games notes or better, do a true manual, could help to understand many of the missing features like the mixed units, what the hell are their weak points??? :roll:

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Post by 76mm » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:39 am

Scutarii wrote:For LF units i think that the key is in ZOC because i have LF in enemy LF flank but cant melee because the LF unit is supported by a HF unit... maybe update the actual games notes or better, do a true manual, could help to understand many of the missing features like the mixed units, what the hell are their weak points??? :roll:
Are you saying that an LF unit cannot attack another LF unit if the defending LF unit is supported by an HF unit? That is an interesting theory, I will have to watch to see if that is going on--did you read that somewhere? Having to guess at the rules is inappropriate for a professionally-produced wargame IMO...

And I guess you're right that there is no big difference between drilled and undrilled LF, although I am also confused about how facing changes work now...

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Post by rbodleyscott » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:43 am

As far as I am aware no troops (any type, drilled or undrilled) can charge to contact if they are not facing the enemy before their move.

Light foot cannot charge non-lights except in terrain.

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Post by CheerfullyInsane » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:52 pm

Running through the online help......

Battle groups may only charge in the direction they are facing.
A battle group may not turn and charge.
A battle group of light foot cannot charge unbroken non-skirmishers in open terrain (even in the flank or rear).
Light Foot and Light Horse are always able to move as if they were drilled Battle Groups.

So for skirmishers training doesn't matter only facing, and I'd guess you can't charge a LF BG if that means entering an enemy HF ZOC.

Then again, I'm just getting started, so what the hell do I know? :roll:

CheerfullyInsane

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Post by pantherboy » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:31 pm

CheerfullyInsane wrote:Running through the online help......

Battle groups may only charge in the direction they are facing.
A battle group may not turn and charge.
A battle group of light foot cannot charge unbroken non-skirmishers in open terrain (even in the flank or rear).
Light Foot and Light Horse are always able to move as if they were drilled Battle Groups.

So for skirmishers training doesn't matter only facing, and I'd guess you can't charge a LF BG if that means entering an enemy HF ZOC.
You can charge LF in HF ZOC. The condition people are talking about has to do with facing. Normally you can charge any legal enemy in your forward arc. If you can move forward, without changing facing, and reach a hex adjacent to an enemy then you can charge them even though you'll need to make a face change for the combat resolution. Any unit can do this but if there are 2 targets and the hex you can reach puts you adjacent to both then you can only charge the unit that doesn't require a face change. So what people are seeing is a LF next to a HF and they want to charge the LF but their own LF has the HF in its forward arc and not the enemy LF. Even though you'll move next to both you cannot opt to charge the LF as you have a valid target in your frontal arc.

Cheers,

Steve

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Post by 76mm » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:22 am

pantherboy wrote:
You can charge LF in HF ZOC. The condition people are talking about has to do with facing. Normally you can charge any legal enemy in your forward arc. If you can move forward, without changing facing, and reach a hex adjacent to an enemy then you can charge them even though you'll need to make a face change for the combat resolution. Any unit can do this but if there are 2 targets and the hex you can reach puts you adjacent to both then you can only charge the unit that doesn't require a face change. So what people are seeing is a LF next to a HF and they want to charge the LF but their own LF has the HF in its forward arc and not the enemy LF. Even though you'll move next to both you cannot opt to charge the LF as you have a valid target in your frontal arc.
Very helpful, thanks!

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Post by Triarii » Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:13 pm

76mm wrote:
pantherboy wrote:
You can charge LF in HF ZOC. The condition people are talking about has to do with facing. Normally you can charge any legal enemy in your forward arc. If you can move forward, without changing facing, and reach a hex adjacent to an enemy then you can charge them even though you'll need to make a face change for the combat resolution. Any unit can do this but if there are 2 targets and the hex you can reach puts you adjacent to both then you can only charge the unit that doesn't require a face change. So what people are seeing is a LF next to a HF and they want to charge the LF but their own LF has the HF in its forward arc and not the enemy LF. Even though you'll move next to both you cannot opt to charge the LF as you have a valid target in your frontal arc.
Very helpful, thanks!
There are a couple of other wrinkles
- you will find that 'poor' missile armed LF will not charge other formed javelin LF even when in their frontal arc.
also
- there is a gamey ruse that (to my shame) I have used from time to time. LF will not normally charge formed cavalry, MF, HF and assorted others but if there is an LF unit or severely disordered unit adjacent you can then charge the LF against that unit leaving them in contact with the (normally) ineligible charge target. This can be useful for pinning a formed unit with cheaper LF or putting in an LF unit, that will rout through your own troops without penalty, and might draw enemy units out of a battle line/strong position in pursuit.

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Post by batesmotel » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:46 pm

Triarius wrote: There are a couple of other wrinkles
- you will find that 'poor' missile armed LF will not charge other formed javelin LF even when in their frontal arc.
also
- there is a gamey ruse that (to my shame) I have used from time to time. LF will not normally charge formed cavalry, MF, HF and assorted others but if there is an LF unit or severely disordered unit adjacent you can then charge the LF against that unit leaving them in contact with the (normally) ineligible charge target. This can be useful for pinning a formed unit with cheaper LF or putting in an LF unit, that will rout through your own troops without penalty, and might draw enemy units out of a battle line/strong position in pursuit.
I do not believe there are any restrictions imposed by FoG PC on poor LF from charging any other skirmishers contrary to the first item above. Other players have requested something like this in the forums but it has not been implemented as far as I know (and would not improve the game in my opinion.)

Chris
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Post by deadtorius » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:27 pm

LF are similar to other missile troops in that they might anarchy on you and not want to charge your target. I believe the chance of anarchy with missile armed troops will go up depending on the odds of a successful attack. This is figured out by the game and then the anarchy may or may not happen. Of course this is just an educated guess but it follows a similar rule to light foot with bows or slings who will almost always run from enemy javelins. The computer decides if the target has a chance of winning a melee and if it does not look good off they run.
Poor troops are more likely to anarchy as the re-roll a 6 rule applies to their anarchy test too. Not to mention they have reduced odds of winning a melee vs average or superiors.

I hope the above is more or less correct that is how I understand it works anyway. :?

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