Armies general discussion

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dz1d3k
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Armies general discussion

Post by dz1d3k » Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:24 pm

Hi guys

Iam new in FOG environment I am wondering with what army I should start play. Of course Iam new but I already played few games (many with AI and few online).

Someone gave my this archive http://web.archive.org/web/201204070941 ... mbat+works

And i found its very usefull, apparently I guess it wasnt updated for very long time, so Iam wondering about armies desctiption in there. Do you tkink its still actual ? Is each of this army TYPE still reasonable to play ? What about bow armies ? I heard that they are not very usefull but actually I was beaten online with this army (ok, maybee because Iam noob).

Most often armies are Roman Heavy Foot / Pikes / Middle foot hordes ? Or other are also in use
How style of play each armies demands ?

I already have few opinions, but maybee someone else wants to share with their own :)


Have a good Dice Casting!
Adrian

Jonathan4290
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Re: Armies general discussion

Post by Jonathan4290 » Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:11 pm

That site is a great resource especially with its tips on each army type. Many of the points on those pages are still very valid. Obviously some armies don't fit as neatly into those army types but may be a hybrid.

The easiest armies to play as are probably Roman and pike armies. You have a wall of infantry with some cavalry to guard the flanks and the general plan is usually just advance, maybe concentrating your better troops and some mass along a major axis. Pretty simple stuff.

MF horde armies are also pretty easy but require some knowledge of the intricate mechanics to properly overrun the opposition. For example, purposefully getting one of your units routed so another unit can rear charge the pursuing unit.

Lancer armies are fun and are more akin to a type of mechanized warfare. The goal is to disrupt a part of the enemy line and then smash it with your best lancers. All the units are in support of creating favourable conditions for this attack. A little more complex than the above too even if it is a simple goal.

MF bow armies require some patience and careful maneuver. You need to wear down the enemy with your mass of missiles and somehow restrict the enemy army's mobility to delay or avoid a general melee . Having drilled MF and/or rough terrain really helps. These armies can be tough to play as but the English armies have a lot of supporting arms if you really like this type.

Shooty bow cavalry armies are the most difficult to play as because they are frankly the worst army type in this system especially in the more dense troop to terrain ratio map sizes. In a real battle the cavalry could shoot and run away until they ran out of missiles or sufficiently disordered the enemy but the map here is obviously finite and this is not possible. If you choose to play as these armies, the goal is to use your missiles and mobility to disrupt the enemy and try and outmaneuver enemy units to pick them off by swarming them. The competitive shooty bow cavalry armies have some sort of shock element to break through the line and create some opportunity for mobility in the enemy rear. If the enemy is able to just advance in a line east-west, it is extremely difficult to inflict even 50% casualties before you lose many times. Some expansions are mostly these types of armies or hybrids, which are pretty interesting to play as (think SAS, EE).

Hope this helps!
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dz1d3k
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Re: Armies general discussion

Post by dz1d3k » Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:43 pm

thank you that kind of help i was looking for!
BTW the art of battle is also very good website

fogman
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Re: Armies general discussion

Post by fogman » Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:17 am

if you play an experienced player you will notice his break points are much higher than yours. First lesson: quantity trumps quality since every unit is worth the same in terms of break points. Therefore the best armies are the horde armies with access to a core of superior troops. A new player tends to stock up on expensive troops. As a corollary, an experienced player will come at you with a cloud of light troops and using zones of control trap your lights when they attempt to evade. He will hurl some cheap units at your expensive ones to be defeated and pursued. Your expensive units will be vulnerable during pursuit and will be attacked from behind. The whole idea of the game is to get rear attacks and having an enemy in pursuit is the easiest way to get a rear attack. The elements of light troops modelling and pursuit happen to be two highly unrealistic aspects of the game. A new player will try to mirror historical tactics and order of battle but will be smashed because of those gamey tricks. I abandoned playing DAG games because of that even though i became quite adept at it myself; but if you do play DAG armies, it is best to play with armies that are historical foes (same period, same overall geographical area) to avoid serious mismatches, and agree to curb the number of lights or not allow them altogether. Historically they have no influence on battles: they tended to skirmish among themselves to little consequence then to fall back when the battle lines of heavies converged.

Yuknoom
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Re: Armies general discussion

Post by Yuknoom » Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:59 pm

First off, let me say I am just a casual grunt player, and do not play at the level of Jonathan or fogman.

Having said that, I don't think the light infantry horde should be a deterrent- I have played a lot of 400 pt open challenge games, maybe 20 in the past month, and only perhaps one in ten runs into this 'stratagem'. I only say that because some times people are hesitant to play fearing that everyone else has some tournament 'killer mentality', and that is not the case. The open 400 pt challenges are almost inevitably friendly, enjoyable social games.
As stated elsewhere, I wish more people were posting open 400 pt challenges - mine are inevitably picked up in a couple of hours, suggesting that people are looking.

Personally, for a beginner I would go with the early Hoplites. Armored heavy spear, much of it Superior, is about as forgiving a troop type as you can find. With free choice of any army both participants in the Championship chose Spartans. Unlike the Romans you don't need to fear being run down by knights. Yes, the poor cavalry is a problem, (Romans can, and should, have the same problem but they often have list options to cover the deficiency), but its usually ok. And there is a funny psychological angle here- if you bring Spartans, (like the Swiss) ,to a blind challenge your opponent will probably be annoyed that you chose a cheesy army. (This is one reason you see few blind challenges in Immortal Fire - you know who you will be facing.) If you bring Early Hoplites the percentage of Superior hoplites works out to be not that different, but no one seems to have a problem with that choice of army.
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TheGrayMouser
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Re: Armies general discussion

Post by TheGrayMouser » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:57 pm

I 'd like to add there is no such thing a cheesy army in a blind challenge, at least IMHO. Swiss can be beat ( free company vs swiss is a really fun line up) Spartans are fun on paper but I honestly think that a regular hoplite army is better balanced and fairs better ( then again I never do to well with offensive spear armies) Hardened cavalry can beat horde armies(at least in open)

light foot can be a pain but only a few armies are unbalanced by them ( basically the LAtin greek lists, which is a shame as I find the history of post crusade Greece fascinating...)

Simply reducing their moment to three hexes vs 4, disallowing them from sacking camps AND not allowing them to "hold firm" in open terrain vs anything other than other lights would go a long way to making them more historical, and curb their use to entrap other troop types and most commonly JACK the BP of your army for cheap, uncatchable troops..

The silliness in terms of unbalance of horde armies , fortunately, is confined to only a few lists. The host of Scotts, Scotts islanders, Irish, Anglo Irish blah blah blah as well as the Nubian Christians are the main offenders. Ironically these "armies" historically would have been tiny , more likely raiders vs a formed army.

One thing that can help in understanding the overall effectivness of an army is the efficiency of its troops. If the army can access enough of a high efficient troop type, it can do very well indeed
IMHO the three most efficient(cost vs power) troop types:
medium protected impact foot
superior protected lancers
poor light bows
(medium unprotected superior archers also take the cake but they are only present in the Nubian lists so ...)
There are variations though that break this "rule". In the later lists with a significant drop in the quality of infantry in general, army lists that have any impact foot tend to be a pain to deal with. So list that feature dailami or almogovhars have an edge (more impact foot)

Altogether the game can be very satisfying and I believe that you can have reasonable tactics that are broadly similar to what would have been used without having to specifically find opponents that want to play in a certain style, or limit army compositions. The true culprits though are huge armies where a player simply lines up an army from left to right, stretched across the board. Considering rear hit are one of the key components of the game, the smaller army will be flanked on numerous fronts across the board and will have a tough time.
The problem would be command and control but FOG does not have that, so really the only way to mitigate this would be the maps themselves. More limits in deploying near the flank edges, allowing deeper maps so its easier to deploy in depth. Would players min-max a 80 BP designed army of light spear infantry IF they were forced to deploy them 4-6 deep? :) Probably not and likely one would see better balanced armies in those situations.
Cheers!

Jonathan4290
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Re: Armies general discussion

Post by Jonathan4290 » Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:14 am

When I started playing I found it helpful to play the same army list a bunch of times until I really felt I understood its capabilities/limitations/strengths/weaknesses and just how to play it against each army type. Definitely pick a somewhat simple army to start with but also make sure it's one you really like.
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Yuknoom
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Re: Armies general discussion

Post by Yuknoom » Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:39 am

When choosing an army for historical miniatures we always say there are 4 criteria-
1) Do you want to paint it?
2) Do you want to play it?
3) Does it have historical charisma for you?
4) Can you win with it.

Each individual has to decide how to weigh these various options in terms of what is important for them and why they play.
But be careful not to deemphasize 2 and 3 for the sake of 4.
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dz1d3k
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Re: Armies general discussion

Post by dz1d3k » Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:05 am

Yuknoom wrote:When choosing an army for historical miniatures we always say there are 4 criteria-
1) Do you want to paint it?
2) Do you want to play it?
3) Does it have historical charisma for you?
4) Can you win with it.
Are they any armies to FoG which DONT need to be painted ? I mean they are painted already ? Where a ican buy such figures ?
So you don't think so that the 4 point is the only crucial one

Yuknoom
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Re: Armies general discussion

Post by Yuknoom » Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:21 pm

Sorry for any confusion.

Some people actually may not know that FoG is a computer representation of a tabletop game played with painted figures.
When playing the miniatures game and choosing an army what and how you like to paint is a consideration. If you like to crank out 'face face face armor armor armor ' type regiments then you might like Romans, if you prefer each fig to be a time consuming work of art you might prefer Aztecs.
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dz1d3k
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Re: Armies general discussion

Post by dz1d3k » Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:41 pm

Is here anyone with good success rate with playing English HYW, Indo-Greeks, Partians or Tatars ? Or any similar type of armies ? I read what you wrote about that kind of army and i can conlude that Bow mounted are poor but MF bow can make some challenge. Can i get some tactical tips about those army ? Or Where i can find any tactical tips (general and for each army), because to be honest, iam not experienced forum user. Maybee you have some Tactical Tips Bundle ?

Tactical and Strategical will be of course welcome as well. As i saw, there is space for both levels of planning

NikiforosFokas
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Re: Armies general discussion

Post by NikiforosFokas » Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:33 pm

dz1d3k wrote:Is here anyone with good success rate with playing English HYW, Indo-Greeks, Partians or Tatars ? Or any similar type of armies ? I read what you wrote about that kind of army and i can conlude that Bow mounted are poor but MF bow can make some challenge. Can i get some tactical tips about those army ? Or Where i can find any tactical tips (general and for each army), because to be honest, iam not experienced forum user. Maybee you have some Tactical Tips Bundle ?

Tactical and Strategical will be of course welcome as well. As i saw, there is space for both levels of planning
Noob here, but from what i see the MF with boot can used with success only in bad terrain because they are not disorded when they fight or stay there. I have tried once the jewish MF bow army. But (i dont know if Indo-Greeks are the same) the fact that they are undrilled doesnt help. And they can not evade. I know that i didnt help you with your question. I just want to say that i am curious too if someone have every used an army like it in a multiplayer game.
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