My problems with the new edition.

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MikeMarchant
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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by MikeMarchant » Sat Jul 09, 2016 5:37 pm

Hi Alzado,

No, I wasn't trying to straw-man you as a particular kind of buyer, I am very sorry if it came across that way. I've been trying to describe the market and FoG's place in it, as well as my feelings about that.

I realise this discussion has been in response to your comments, but my responses haven't really been 'aimed at you' in that sense. It's been very interesting for me to discuss this with you, and I haven't seen it as an argument as such, but as an exploration of ideas. Certainly I agree with almost everything you've said.

Again, if I caused offence, my sincere apologies.


Best Wishes

Mike

alzado_77
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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by alzado_77 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:43 pm

No don't worry Mike - the discussion has been both frank and civil!

I just hope they decide to keep the old game alive for that 6-12 month period while the bugs are worked out.

MikeMarchant
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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by MikeMarchant » Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:06 pm

Yes, couldn't agree more, and thanks for the exchange of views, Alzado. It's always a pleasure.


Best Wishes

Mike

paulmcneil
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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by paulmcneil » Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:17 pm

There have been some great philosophical, and commercial comments raised.

However can someone from development answer the shorter one liner questions people are putting up on the simple points of game play?

Could we have a simple list published here of what has been removed, so we can distinguish between a bug and a "feature", for example have the following disappeared, 'cause I can't find them? :

1. Double moves
2. Fog of War
3. Scouting points to get an advantage on map choice.

It may be me. I don't know. Can someone please tell me.

btw I used to really enjoy all three of these features as they gave an edge to the game that you would have to think through when building your army and deploying it. Shame if they're gone.
Paul McNeil

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by stockwellpete » Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:24 pm

paulmcneil wrote:There have been some great philosophical, and commercial comments raised.

However can someone from development answer the shorter one liner questions people are putting up on the simple points of game play?

Could we have a simple list published here of what has been removed, so we can distinguish between a bug and a "feature", for example have the following disappeared, 'cause I can't find them? :

1. Double moves
2. Fog of War
3. Scouting points to get an advantage on map choice.

It may be me. I don't know. Can someone please tell me.

btw I used to really enjoy all three of these features as they gave an edge to the game that you would have to think through when building your army and deploying it. Shame if they're gone.
Double moves and FOW are still in the game. When you set a challenge you can set these two features "On" or "Off" from the menu at the right hand side bottom corner of the screen.

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by NikiforosFokas » Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:22 pm

Some more observations:
1st) Again congratulions to Dan for all the work. I am sure in the end of the day he will make FOG better that we all have imagined.
I like very much the detailed analysis on the consule about dice results. For example it says dice 3,3,4,5 POA +2 (Hit 4,5,6).
But to be useful this very nice tool , i am afraid it must be removed all the infos about select/deselect of units, the movement path etc. from the console. It simple becomes so big, and soon you can not follow it.
2)Is it really necessery to light red the hexes that the unit can not move, especially when it is places that you can not make a douple move. I mean it's ok, but i can not see the reason.
3)The evading path has really a problem. What i mean is that a bg can evade -1/+1 of their movement to any path. But some times, they just make zig-zag to nearby hexes so a LF unit end up only two hexes behind. I think it is ok if you want, that what, to represent the panic of an evading unit. It will stop the unrealistic use of the LF. But what about, for an example a Mongol Horse Archer bg? Those guys knew how to evade with out panic. It will be really shame them to be catched from a HF bg.
4) Can all of us who do not have english as mother tongue have an explanation of what exactly does the Post Static Act Wait Time and Post Ani Act Wait Time. Can we have a simple one slider. Can not really see the reason for all those sliders.
(Again sorry for my english :))
For Byzantium!!

paulmcneil
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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by paulmcneil » Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:51 pm

@stockwellpete thanks for the answer Pete, I think I may have found a bug then...I'm running the game on a Mac and there is no function in the bottom right hand corner to chose options like FopW or double moves, all you can do is post the challenge, am I still missing something?
Paul McNeil

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by paulmcneil » Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:00 pm

Actually Pete, the option you describe comes up on "issue a challenge" main screen but not on issue a DAG challenge mainscreen, so is this s bug?
Paul McNeil

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by stockwellpete » Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:10 pm

paulmcneil wrote:Actually Pete, the option you describe comes up on "issue a challenge" main screen but not on issue a DAG challenge mainscreen, so is this s bug?
I guess so then. Please report in the technical support forum and see what they say.

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by Cablenexus » Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:41 pm

First of all I want to thank Slitherine to let us discuss this subject so openly on the forum. I think there are many publishers who really don't care, just make their product obsolete and ban unwanted discussion from the forum. It seems you really care and (also thanks to Mike on this forum) I start to understand the decisions made by Slitherine.

I'm at the point now that I even accept if Slitherine decide to just make the previous version obsolete. For myself I just hope that I can still run the game and "when needed" can download the old version somewhere in the future (maybe if contact you by mail).

Anyway I think Mike in this forum is right that there is no other solution we all stop playing the old version and start playing the new one over and over again and just fill those forums with everything we think is important to report so the dev have something to do ;-p

Anyway I want to apoligize for Dan if I was to rude in the forums before about the quality of your version of the game. Belief me that my intention was just to bring everything I did not like about the new version to your attention because I thought most of the veterans maybe did not notice them.

I want to thank Mike for your posts because they really let me think more then twice about all this.

Keep up the good work. There is really something very good about the new version. It's stable, it's fast and it's Unity so future proof. You know already which parts I don't like.

Why don't bring this new version to Steam as an EA game? Early Access program for some year brings in money, tons of feedback and from my 50 real "Steam" friends I have 15 already are very interested in the game when on Steam.

Keep up the good work I'm happy that I'm not in the position about making choices for all these matters....as a customer at least I can say I'm fine with whatever the choice will be.

Cunningcairn
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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by Cunningcairn » Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:37 pm

stockwellpete wrote:
FroBodine wrote:This makes sense, and thank you for being the voice of reason. If Slitherine/Matrix would have said up front that this new version is in the early stages of development, than all would have been fine.

But, they didn't. They marketed it as a completely remade version with a bunch of enhancements and improvements. They did not mention that it was still in development, and there was some content still to be added, and that it was basically remade to cater to the mobile platform, with some features removed for an unknown reason because the developer didn't feel the need to add them yet.

That's what frustrates me.
Yes, I think you have a point here and hopefully someone from Slitherine can answer it for you.
Pete wouldn't be better to stay with the old version until some if the issues with the new version are sorted out?

stockwellpete
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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by stockwellpete » Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:43 pm

Cunningcairn wrote:Pete wouldn't be better to stay with the old version until some if the issues with the new version are sorted out?
It's not my decision, Martin. I am not part of Slitherine, I just help with moderation of the forum and run the tournaments. The new version is hardly playable at the moment so I think Slitherine should keep the server open for the old version for the foreseeable future.

stinno
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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by stinno » Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:22 pm

This is not an improvement. Graphics look terrible, i dont like it at all. This new edition will kill this game. I cant even be bothered playing it.

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by Towerbooks3192 » Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:42 am

Cablenexus wrote:First of all I want to thank Slitherine to let us discuss this subject so openly on the forum. I think there are many publishers who really don't care, just make their product obsolete and ban unwanted discussion from the forum. It seems you really care and (also thanks to Mike on this forum) I start to understand the decisions made by Slitherine.

I'm at the point now that I even accept if Slitherine decide to just make the previous version obsolete. For myself I just hope that I can still run the game and "when needed" can download the old version somewhere in the future (maybe if contact you by mail).

Anyway I think Mike in this forum is right that there is no other solution we all stop playing the old version and start playing the new one over and over again and just fill those forums with everything we think is important to report so the dev have something to do ;-p

Anyway I want to apoligize for Dan if I was to rude in the forums before about the quality of your version of the game. Belief me that my intention was just to bring everything I did not like about the new version to your attention because I thought most of the veterans maybe did not notice them.

I want to thank Mike for your posts because they really let me think more then twice about all this.

Keep up the good work. There is really something very good about the new version. It's stable, it's fast and it's Unity so future proof. You know already which parts I don't like.

Why don't bring this new version to Steam as an EA game? Early Access program for some year brings in money, tons of feedback and from my 50 real "Steam" friends I have 15 already are very interested in the game when on Steam.

Keep up the good work I'm happy that I'm not in the position about making choices for all these matters....as a customer at least I can say I'm fine with whatever the choice will be.
I do agree that early access will help this game but due to the steam refund policy, it might attract some people who are not willing to spend a lot of time properly learning the game and leaving a negative review. If ever this goes in to steam and their purpose is to bring in more players, here are my suggestions:

- Fix the issues found by veterans. If the veterans don't like the new version and they already know its ins and outs then I doubt it would appeal to newer players

- Keep complex dice rolls in detailed view while you keep the combat prediction simple. New players will only concern themselves if they will win a charge or not and should they want to know why they can't win it then open the detailed view and see the maths behind it.

- Option to turn on combat results like they do in Sengoku Jidai. That screen where you get Our X unit (advantaged/disadvantaged, etc.) vs Enemy Y unit then display the casualties then maybe a display of the dice rolls during that combat.

- Add an army list tab that contains the list of units you got, their manpower (how many units are left) and their morale (the Disrupted, Fragmented, Routed thing)

- Package the game with at least one expansion and a PDF version of the books. Base game's DAG armies were underwhelming. Packaging it with at least a single expansion would at least let the new players see that they can create a lot of different armies in the DAG and it wouldn't seem that the expansions is a cheap way to nickle and dime them since they know what to expect when they get an expansion. The PDF version of the books will really help new players get a background of the armies they are playing, give them more details about the rules and heck might even entice them to play the real one. Some kind of documentation/information about units and it would be nice to have an in-game library or the PDF version of the books to see who the Varangian Guards are and what makes them different compared to others like the mongols or the janissaries.

- Presentation should be like a game but under the hood the rules remain. I will once again mention Pike and Shot and Sengoku Jidai. The way it is presented is a game but under the hood the rules of FoG (I think it is based on FoG with variations or something?) still applies. The old javelin,arrow, artillery animations can make a huge difference and should make a comeback.

- Should the UI be made to fit a mobile device like it is in new FoG, at least make it look ok in the PC version. Once again I will mention Sengoku Jidai. UI works on a tablet (pike and shot was good on my iPad IMHO) and though it can be underwhelming on the PC, it is still playable.'

Here are my 2 cents on the matter. I do agree that the current state of new FoG is disappointing but it doesn't mean I will slam the devs for it. I am actually hopeful that they will support it more and improve it. I kept mentioning Sengoku Jidai and Pike and shot because those two games led me to shell out $200 AuD a few days ago for all the expansions and the base game. Also those games actually managed to package FoG(-ish?) rules in a way that beginners can easily learn it but dig deeper to master it.

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by NikiforosFokas » Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:38 pm

NikiforosFokas wrote: 4) Can all of us who do not have english as mother tongue have an explanation of what exactly does the Post Static Act Wait Time and Post Ani Act Wait Time. Can we have a simple one slider. Can not really see the reason for all those sliders.
(Again sorry for my english :))
Anyone please?
For Byzantium!!

Towerbooks3192
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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by Towerbooks3192 » Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:42 pm

NikiforosFokas wrote:
NikiforosFokas wrote: 4) Can all of us who do not have english as mother tongue have an explanation of what exactly does the Post Static Act Wait Time and Post Ani Act Wait Time. Can we have a simple one slider. Can not really see the reason for all those sliders.
(Again sorry for my english :))
Anyone please?
Not my mother tongue but the way I understand is that it sets the wait time after each action it is that post static act will be after someone shot/threw something or attacked and post animation act is after someone has moved or charged?

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by paulmcneil » Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:44 pm

Chaps, it is my mother tongue and I've got no idea what it means.
Paul McNeil

NikiforosFokas
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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by NikiforosFokas » Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:45 pm

Oh ok i see. Thanks for the reply, anyway :)
For Byzantium!!

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by NikiforosFokas » Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:50 pm

Towerbooks.
I also think that one has to do with the waiting time between the movies of two bg and the other has to do with the time after action animation (like routing takes.). But each combination i try i end up or to wait so long for each unit to move or that everything goes to fast to watch (especially in battles results). And how these two sliders react with the third one the animation speed? It s really mess for me atleast.
For Byzantium!!

stockwellpete
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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:59 pm

I can't get the balance with the sliders right either. I have just got it on very slow at the moment. Really the game needs to be set at a comfortable default speed and the sliders should be able to adjust it from there.

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