Aviz Portuguese

Private forum for design team.

Moderators: rbodleyscott, nikgaukroger, Slitherine Core, FOGR Design

Post Reply
robertthebruce
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 505
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:24 pm
Location: Granada, Spain.

Aviz Portuguese

Post by robertthebruce » Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:11 pm

About Richard and Nik notes:
NG:I assume this is what is actually meant

Yes, poor Quality.

RBS: I think lancers is the proper classification. If Filipe (pippohispano) is right in attributing the lesser equipment in his ordinance quote below to the equipment of ginetes, they were armed with 20 palm (14 foot) lances:
“In the Ordenação sobreMikeK wrote: If not ET, might note that these are up to 2 pike files flanked by single files of shot, so no more than 4 Shot in total are able to shoot os cavalos e armas (Rules for horses and guns) of D. João III (1549), people of “condition” should have: high saddle, corselet with gorge, thigh and arm protections, sword and 20 palm lance; they could also have cuirass and gineta saddle instead; they could also provide, if they didn’t have the corselet they should have arm protections or an adarga shield instead, plus full head protection.”


Not easy to give them a classification. The spanish ginetes fought with the spear over the shoulder, and using skirmishing tactics. By other hand, a 14 foot lance, seems too large to use it in this way. Is more likely to be used as lance.

I agree with the armoured option, I missed it in the first draft.

MikeK wrote: If not ET, might note that these are up to 2 pike files flanked by single files of shot, so no more than 4 Shot in total are able to shoot

They were a big units, triying to imitate the tercos, but is unlikey that a unit of peasants lightly trained, could make an effective tercio formation.




RBS: Really? Did they not have any at other times if the Sultans of Fez were tributary?
A big contingent was used in Alcazarquivir, at other times, only a few number of moorish light horse was included in the army. I think that remove the "Only Ksar El Kabir option" will no change significantly the list. Ok for me.

NG: Should these have the same BG size and options as Imperial landsknecht keils of the same date?
The numbers of mercenaries

- 3000 between germans, burgundians and wallons
- 600 Italians

I´m not sure, but it seems that this units were not very large. What do you think?


Are these needed? Aren’t they represented by the Moroccan allies?
I added them in the optional troops. I´m sorry is a mistake. They can be removed if the allies are included not only in Ksar al Kabir.



Pippohispano noted, that Cavaleiros Acobertados are removed after the 1549 ordinnance.

But:

↑ cerca de 7000 nobres e homens de armas, Tom Gallagher, "Portugal: a twentieth-century interpretation", p.8, Manchester University Press ND, 1983, ISBN 0-7190-0876-X


Text about Ksar el Kabir 1578 (the original is in Portuguese):

" The Portuguese army in this battle has a fisrt line (vanguard), compossed by the "Aventureiros", commanded by Cristovao de Távora, and the foreing volunteers and mercenary troops. Left wing of heavy cavalry, commanded by the Knig D.Sebastiao, and the right wing of cavalry commanded by Vasco da Silveira. The third line of infantry, commanded by Francisco Tavora. The most of artillery was deployed in first line."



Heavy cavalry appears in this battle although the ordinance of 1549. They don´t appears in Alcantara, but they aren´t compulsory in the list.

SirGarnet
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Posts: 2186
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:13 am

Re: Aviz Portuguese

Post by SirGarnet » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:42 pm

robertthebruce wrote:
MikeK wrote: If not ET, might note that these are up to 2 pike files flanked by single files of shot, so no more than 4 Shot in total are able to shoot
They were a big units, triying to imitate the tercos, but is unlikey that a unit of peasants lightly trained, could make an effective tercio formation.
I was noting that it appears odd and possibly a typo at first look, and might benefit from clarification, such as

"Portuguese tercos, regional militia and volunteers not designated as Early Tercios are normal pike and shot formations, with one or two files of pike in the center and a file of arquebus on each side. These represent large newly-raised formations without the training and experience to successfully imitate the tercio. Note only the front two ranks of arquebus may shoot."

Since the alternative is fielding them as an Early Tercio, the only organizational advantage of this line is being able to field another Poor BG with fewer than 12 bases.

robertthebruce
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 505
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:24 pm
Location: Granada, Spain.

Post by robertthebruce » Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:14 pm

Ok, to all the changes in the last update (1.16c). The moorish cavalry is ok, but a few mounted morocans were used in alcantara, the cronist says "a handful of Moroccan horse" maybe ona BG can be allowed in Portugal. After Alcazarquivir, the most of the army never returned to Portugal. 2 years later, the Spanish invaded Portugal, only an unexperienced portuguese army could be sent against the invaders.


I have not founded any about Cavaleiros Acobertados in Alcantara, I think that they shouldn´t be included in 1580. The most of cavalry in Alcántara, were Ginetes.


About the mounted arquebusiers and crossbowmen, I´m sorry I have no dates.


I´m thinking about allow only 1/2 of infantry as ET in Alcantara, I have a text who says that the Portuguese army in Alcantara was worse than I thought, I will ask Filipe, the text is in Portuguese.

robertthebruce
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 505
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:24 pm
Location: Granada, Spain.

Post by robertthebruce » Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:49 pm

Summary of change proposals acording with the Pippohispano coments:

Cavalry:

- No Cavaleiros acobertados from 1578 after Ksar el Kebir
- Add "Cavalos Ligeros" as optional troops 0-8 bases. Same classification as Spanish Celadas. They are in Alcántara in 1580, but I suppose that they are added to the army at the same time that the Celadas in the Spanish army.
- Mounted Crossbowmen before 1540, we don´t have confirmation but Filipe says is the most likely date .
- Nothing about the mounted arquebusiers dates.


Infantry

- The germans were organized in an only formation, could be included as big unit up to 16 bases, they fought in their own combat formation, pikes and heavy weapon. Filipe says that the were better armoured than the spanish and portuguese, but I´m not sure that could be heavily armoured.

- In Alcántara 1580, only poor pike and shot units can be used, 1/2 of them must be militas in not ET formation.

rbodleyscott
Field of Glory 2
Field of Glory 2
Posts: 22543
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:25 pm

Post by rbodleyscott » Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:24 am

Thanks

I don't suppose that we know for certain that the mercenaries had no shot (in fact the Italians, at least, are very likely to have been shot), so I will leave the option for shot in. (But remove the Unarmoured pike/HW)

Post Reply

Return to “FoGR Lists”