French armour overpowered?

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Ryben
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French armour overpowered?

Post by Ryben » Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:46 pm

I´m on third mission in Blitzkrieg expansion and i feel french armour are very though and german weapons seems quite innefective against them. :(

In BA the mighty Tiger and Panther were difficult to beat, but manageable. In Blitzkrieg even the most crappy armoured car is a hard nut to crack. Those Schneider P16 are a nightmare, loads of "deflected" results even at close range. What´s worst, even infantry attacks seem less effective than before. I´ve hit no less than 4 times a H35 and i didn´t take him down.

I like challenging missions but all of this "deflected, deflected, deflected" is leading me to frustration. I´ve found BA (generally speaking) maybe a bit easy, but very fun to play but i´m not enjoying at all this expansion.

I´m not sure if more people agree with me that French armour values needs to be adjusted.

I think i´m not going to play any more missions for some time hoping that things got fixed in a near future. Maybe it´s just me, not sure what to think but there´s a noticable change in gameplay from BA.

Igorputski
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Post by Igorputski » Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:10 pm

There's another thread already started about this just a few threads down and yes over 2 to 1 are against your claims of the french being overpowered. People cry about games too easy and now about games too hard. Poor Slitherine can't win for losing to whiners.

Ryben
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Post by Ryben » Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:46 pm

I don´t like to cry at all but i think i should give my impressions about the game. The other post is complaining about the "realism" of the french army as portrayed in the game. I am complaining about the difficulty in abstract terms (no matter if they are french or polish or whatever).

I´m sure in the middle is the fine point...in original game tanks were blown up easily (being the thougest of the war) and now they are very hard (being the weakest). If things were reversed surely i wouldn´t be complaining (as that´s precisely what i was expecting from a "historical" point of view).

Being a big fan from the original i find myself surprised that i´m not enjoying this expansion as i should.

pipfromslitherine
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Post by pipfromslitherine » Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:42 am

I'm no expert on the gameplay specifics, but from what I have read, you need to make extra use of combined forces to take out the french armour. If the difficulty is making it less fun for you, then you can always drop down to easy mode to get a better idea of the lay of the land before taking another shot at a mission.

Cheers

Pip

Skanvak
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Post by Skanvak » Sun Dec 26, 2010 9:44 am

Ryben

French Tanks where actually nearly indestructible for the panzer of the time (because they don't have good cannon at that time), this is written in german reports of this time. In 1943 the panzer are way much more armored and powerful.

For once, the french are rightly pictured :)

Ryben
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Post by Ryben » Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:58 am

Thanks, don´t like "easy mode" as feels like cheating. I already know that German AFV were inferior to their French counterparts and that´s what i was expecting. Which bothers me is how the lightest vehicles are displayed, being quite difficult to defeat and they were not really so armoured in reality.

Somuas, CharB and Matildas? Huge steel beasts! (in this period). Schneiders and FT17...should be easier prey and not so troublesome. At least the "morale doesn´t drop" bug should be fixed.

Acererak
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Post by Acererak » Sun Dec 26, 2010 12:04 pm

FT17s and Scheniders don´t usually stand too long against PZIIIs in the game. I think everything behaves in the right way.

On my side, I am enjoying a lot the new challenges of the expansion. Single missions are much more difficult but definitely doable. AI has improved as well. I was expecting a cake walk after all the experience I got with first game and MP and I am actually having quite a hard time in some missions. Awesome!

gib10
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Post by gib10 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:57 pm

you need to make extra use of combined forces to take out the french armour
I find that french tanks are very succeptible to a german engineer assault....hint hint. Use your arty and air power to clear a way on a flank then exploit the breach...works for me almost all the time.

Acererak
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Post by Acererak » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:02 am

gib10 wrote:
you need to make extra use of combined forces to take out the french armour
I find that french tanks are very succeptible to a german engineer assault....hint hint. Use your arty and air power to clear a way on a flank then exploit the breach...works for me almost all the time.
And those sweet 88´s...oh boy, those 88´s.... :roll:

IainMcNeil
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Post by IainMcNeil » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:45 am

Early tanks are much less effective against infantry as they have smaller calibre guns so rely more on machine guns than explosives so there are definitely lots of opportunities for engineers & flame throwers. 88's are a godsend as well when you get them!

Acererak
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Post by Acererak » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:26 pm

One very entertaining (and effective) tactic I am finding playing as Axis in the new expansion MP games is precisely moving those 88´s around the map, looking for nasty positioning and giving my opponenets some headaches not knowing when or where Mr 88´s will appear again.

A bit unrealistic from a historic point of view maybe (since I doubt these beasts where so mobile, specially in Early War period) but heck, quite fun. Try it out!

acarhj
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Post by acarhj » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:26 pm

I think part of the problem is that people think that since the French got walked over in the real invasion, the French army should be push-overs. That is pretty much far from the truth. The French engineering was actually quite good. They did possess some of the best tanks for the early war. S35 was probably the best MBT and the Char B1 was the "Tiger Tank" of the early war. The Germans used mainly PZ-IIs. PZ-IIIs were relatively new and used the 37mm gun...not really a great weapon. The PZ-IV was also used in small numbers but was an infantry support tank with a short 75mm gun. Both tanks boasted armor of not more than 1". Compared to the 2" on the S35 or the 2.5" (I think) on the Matilda. BTW, another engineering innovation...S35 had sloped armor.

Germans mainly won the same way the allies won later in the war. Lots of air power, artillery and good combined arms tactics. That was something the French had not developed yet (the tactics).

So, if you are having trouble defeating the French tanks, then the game is functioning correctly.

gib10
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Post by gib10 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:41 pm

The battle for France took what, 1 month? (May 10 1940 to June 14 1940 - paris captured)? Cakewalk due to better german tactics, combined arms which I've hear said was really only enabled by the fact that they had radios in their tanks and the rest of the world did not at that time allowing them to call in tac bombers(stukas) in support of their armor and arty coordination.

From Wikipedia:

Army tacticsThe main tool of the German land forces was combined arms combat. In contrast to the Allies, they relied in highly mobile offensive units, with balanced numbers of well trained artillery, infantry, engineer and tank formations, all integrated into Panzer Divisions. They relied on excellent communication systems which enabled them to break into a position and exploit it before the enemy could react. Panzer Divisions could carry out reconnaissance missions, advance to contact, defend and attack vital positions or weak spots. This ground would then be held by infantry and artillery as pivot points for further attacks. Although their tanks were not designed for tank versus tank combat, they could take ground and draw the enemy armour on to the division's anti-tank lines. This conserved the tanks to achieve the next stage of the offensive. The units' logistics were self-contained, allowing for three of four days of combat. The Panzer Divisions would be supported by motorised and infantry divisions.[66]

The German Army lacked a formidable heavy combat tank such as the French possessed. In armament and armour, French tanks were the stronger designs and more numerous (although the German vehicles were more mechanically reliable).[67][68] But while the German Army was outnumbered in artillery and tanks, it possessed some critical advantages over its opponents. The crews of German Panzers numbered five men; a Commander, aimer, loader, driver and mechanic.[64] Having a trained individual for each task allowed each man to dedicate himself to his own mission and it made for a highly efficient combat team. The French had fewer members, with the commander double-tasking with loading the main gun. It distracted him from his main duties in observation and tactical deployment. It made for a far less efficient system.[64]

Even within infantry formations, the Germans enjoyed an advantage through the doctrine of Auftragstaktik (Mission command tactics), by which officers were expected to use their initiative to achieve their commanders' intentions, and were given control of the necessary supporting arms; for example, a German infantry regiment had twelve heavy infantry guns. By comparison, British formations relied on centralised command, and officers had to call on the divisional artillery headquarters for fire support. This centralised control would have given British formations an advantage in formal set-piece operations, but put them at a disadvantage in rapidly-changing tactical situations where operations had to be improvised.[69]

After the war Heinz Guderian compared French tanks with those available to German commanders in 1940:
"The French tanks were better than ours in armour, guns and number, but inferior in speed, radio-communication and leadership. The concentration of all armoured forces at the decisive spot, the rapid exploitation of success, and the initiative of the officers of all degrees were the main reasons of our victory in 1940."

gwnorth
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Post by gwnorth » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:07 am

Flamethrowers. I was having a devil of a time with the French tanks until I started using flamethrowers on them. In one secnario a flame thrower in the woods just off one of the chokepoints took out 11 French tanks all on his own. I held my own armor back from those massive French tanks until the Flamethrowers whittled them down.

That said never put a flamethrower out in the open. If you are making your way to one of the chokepoints take your time and use woods or other terrain features as cover. You might want to recon with tanks first to learn where the enemy infantry and machine guns are, suppress them and then get your flamethrowers in place. Once the French "sees" your armor they send their own on the attack and thats when you pull back to allow your flamethrowers do their dirty work.

I find they work better on tanks then those early antitank infantry.

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