[GJS_BA] Invasion

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GottaLove88s
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by GottaLove88s » Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:57 pm

@Granfali, You've got me worried now, so I went back to the Rulebook. It does indeed say, "Morale: L Low (morale infantry 75, rest morale 100); M Medium (all morale 100); H High (all morale 100 + extra bonus; rally, revive and sgt)". Dang it, I've got to learn to read the smallprint before signing contracts, lol...

Looking at the Battlegroup (BG) tables, the full scenario will introduce 27 German BGs (6L, 8M, 13H) versus 27 Allied BGs (24M, 3A)...

Please clarify... Does that mean that 13 of 27 German BGs will be able to use all three of medic, rally and drill sgt... or just one of the bonuses at their choice...?

Versus only 3 of 27 Allied BGs with access to any bonuses (the airborne ones that don't have any armour)...?

I don't think I've ever won a single MP versus another player who had all three bonuses and me none, so this is going to be, ahem, interesting... especially versus those infallible Tigers...

Unless I've missed something, I predict a grim future for the Allies... Am preparing my explanation for Mr Churchill in advance... He's not a very understanding fellow :-)
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347

k9mike
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by k9mike » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:16 pm

Granfali wrote:Only high morale BGs have those privileges... (medic, rally and sgt drill) and I remember now that I forgot to put them for airborne BGs (sorry) :oops: . Fortunately for them it seems they are not necessary.
Omg...an then on top of my deployment/movement mess up.... arghhhhh
Sorry for late games but I live in Central time zone...and am working day shift right now.
Mike

Granfali
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by Granfali » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:19 pm

SS, Lehr and 2nd Pz have high morale. Only two BGs have Tigers over 26 german BGs.
Remeber we are playing on a close ground, with hedgerows, houses and very shorts fire ranges. Tiger's power is decreased. Infantry has here a good AT role (engineers, piats, charges...). Piat now is a good AT weapon. Check them vs PzIV, Panthers and Tigers.
British players have to a strong point, the numbers. Every British BGs can reinforce one time, so their forces were replenished to the maximum level. That means allied side doubles germans in terms of strength. Adds typhoons, naval artillery, 25pdr artillery... I think campaign is hard for both sides.
In a fight losing a map could be sodding, but if germans lose 5 panzer to conquer they will not replacements. It had been a high price.
If British strategy leads to fight versus Tigers and Panthers BGs beating with frontal assaults... blood rivers of blood shall blow over normandy fields. :wink:
Monty did't take Caen in two days... :D

Granfali
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by Granfali » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:21 pm

k9mike wrote:
Granfali wrote:Only high morale BGs have those privileges... (medic, rally and sgt drill) and I remember now that I forgot to put them for airborne BGs (sorry) :oops: . Fortunately for them it seems they are not necessary.
Omg...an then on top of my deployment/movement mess up.... arghhhhh
Sorry for late games but I live in Central time zone...and am working day shift right now.
Mike
Don't worry Mike :wink:

GottaLove88s
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by GottaLove88s » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:33 pm

9SS (1BG), 10SS (1BG), 12SS (4BGs), Lehr (4BGs), 2Pz (2 BGs), IPzK (1BG) all have H morale... IPzK has only Tigers for armour (25 of them in that BG), all three of 3/2Pz, 6/Lehr and 12/12SS have only Panthers (23 to 36 of the beasts per BG), 130/Lehr has Tigers and PzIVs... Thinking back to when I've managed to take out Tigers and Panthers in other MP and SP games, it's taken a combination of Priests, mortars and AT guns... I suspect we could see scenarios where we're facing 6-8 Tigers or Panthers on a single map... and we could go to all the effort of suppressing them, losing several units per suppression, only to have them rallied back into good health every two turns...
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347

GottaLove88s
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by GottaLove88s » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:36 pm

Hmmm... you raise an interesting point about reinforcements... that's true, only the Allies reinforce... That should make a difference over the long run, but thinking about this, within the June 6th to June 24th (ish) timeframe of the campaign, is the lack of reinforcement really going to impact on all 36 of 6/Lehr's Panthers?... I'm not sure if I've killed 36 Panthers in all of my BA games... and 6/Lehr is only one BG...
Last edited by GottaLove88s on Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347

Granfali
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by Granfali » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:37 pm

GottaLove88s wrote:Please clarify... Does that mean that 13 of 27 German BGs will be able to use all three of medic, rally and drill sgt... or just one of the bonuses at their choice...?
Yes, I mean all of three. Medic has fewer valor since units have now 8-5 men (most of them) and only come alive again one soldier, rally is a good "weapon" few to object; and drill sgt is the only way to raise their morale. In a first moment I thought to change morale for all units of every high morale BG in squads.csv, but it supposed to makes a lot of changes every turn, no opperative. So I decided to do in that way. All the more, German player can think the opposite... with this way only 10 of his units can promote to "silver" since there is one turn available and another no available for that bonus (20 turns/2 availbles = 10). 10 over 26 is 38% of german forces. Not very determinant (IMHO)
GottaLove88s wrote:Versus only 3 of 27 Allied BGs with access to any bonuses (the airborne ones that don't have any armour)...?
Yes, Airborne BGs have Shermans when they ask for replacements.
Last edited by Granfali on Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

GottaLove88s
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by GottaLove88s » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:40 pm

I'm not too worried about drill sgt promotions... they're only a nice to have... More concerned about Rally bringing suppressed Panthers back to life again... How long will it take for Rally and Medic to refresh after use? If games are 20 turns long, with a 3 turn refresh, we could be looking at 7 Panthers back from the dead... per game?
Last edited by GottaLove88s on Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347

GottaLove88s
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by GottaLove88s » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:43 pm

But, yep, you make a good point on Medic... +1 man recovery is less of an advantage for 8-man infantry units... With 3-turn refresh, it means one extra unit per 20-turn game... Ok, I can live with that, on 3 (or more ;-)) turn refresh...
Last edited by GottaLove88s on Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347

GottaLove88s
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by GottaLove88s » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:44 pm

Rallying seven Tigers or Panthers per game though... :oops:
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347

GottaLove88s
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by GottaLove88s » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:48 pm

Granfali wrote:Yes, Airborne BGs have Shermans when they ask for replacements.
That's some good news then... Regular "Tommy cooker", "Ronson lighter", "brew up" Shermans... or Fireflies?
:mrgreen:
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347

Granfali
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by Granfali » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:52 pm

Panthers are not Tigers... side and rear shots are deadly.

In the end Monty was right... yankies are fighting vs weak units winning medals... while CW divisions have in the front of best german divisions. :D

GottaLove88s
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by GottaLove88s » Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:14 pm

Compromise proposal... I kind of understand why the Germans should have a high morale bonus, many of these units, esp the SS divisions were very experienced from the Eastern Front... Many of the Americans were green on D-Day, although less so the Commonwealth forces... But I suspect German morale won't have held once the Allies started to make a serious breakout... so, here's a compromise... Your Normandy strategic map is composed of about 45 sectors... Could we say that the 13 H-morale German BGs and the 3 H-morale Brit BGs can use all three bonuses from the start, but when (if?) the Allies can take more than half of the map (23 sectors) then the M-morale BGs of both sides get these bonuses too... One would hope that the Allies would have got their act together by then...
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347

GottaLove88s
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by GottaLove88s » Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:20 pm

@Granfali, Just to be clear, because forum posts don't convey a happy but fearful tone of voice :D ... this campaign you're creating is unbelievably clever, detailed, and great fun to play... I love the implementation, the flow of it... Everything you've done here is amazing... The only potential problem is a BA problem, not a GJS problem... The way that BA implements Tigers and Panthers makes them far too strong... So far, scenario designers have gotten around that by making them rare in BA's single-player scenarios, or very expensive for force selection in MP scenarios... What we're about to do in GJS feels like it's going to pitch battle-scarred infantry divisions versus BA's implementation of nearly impossible to kill German heavy tanks, where we might be facing 6-8 of them in a single game... I might be wrong (I hope I am) but I suspect that may have a predictable outcome...
Last edited by GottaLove88s on Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347

k9mike
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by k9mike » Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:37 pm

GottaLove88s wrote:But, yep, you make a good point on Medic... +1 man recovery is less of an advantage for 8-man infantry units... With 3-turn refresh, it means one extra unit per 20-turn game... Ok, I can live :mrgreen: with that, on 3 (or more ;-)) turn refresh...
Jon, so there is a 3 turn refresh instead of the original 2?? An does this take into account the deploy/movement on initial turn?? Just want to make sure I don't screw up anymore....Granfali please help me. Via the messages during our game tilll I get everything down. Sorry....typing this from my Droid phone at work....lol

GottaLove88s
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by GottaLove88s » Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:38 pm

Last question, hehe... then I've really got to get back to reading something for the day job...

Hypothetically, if IPzK attacks a Brit division, its core forces would be 6 infantry, 2 transport, 4 armour, 4 support (mortar, HMG, AT inf, flamethrower)... It's only got Tigers for its armour, so the 4 freebies are Tigers...

But it can choose a further +10 units in force selection... Theoretically could they all be Tigers too?

There are 25 Tigers in that division, so could the German player choose a force with 14 Tigers, 6 infantry, 2 transport and 4 support...

What's the max number of Tigers we might face in any single scenario?
Ditto for Panthers for the three Panther-only divisions?
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347

GottaLove88s
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by GottaLove88s » Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:42 pm

k9mike wrote:so there is a 3 turn refresh instead of the original 2?? An does this take into account the deploy/movement on initial turn??
@mike: Ooops, my bad, I think you're right... if it's a 2-turn refresh, not 3... so in a 20-turn game, we're looking at +9 medic use (in grand scheme of things, no biggie), but +9 unsuppressions (which translated as up to 9 Panthers/Tigers back to life would be lethal, in the BA world)

How's it going in Merville, Mike? :-)
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347

GottaLove88s
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by GottaLove88s » Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:44 pm

PS. 20 turns counts the initial deploy/move as one turn...
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347

gortwillsaveus
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by gortwillsaveus » Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:17 pm

No offense and I really mean this as a joke,..but GL88,...you're sounding like you're peeing your pants.
Don't worry, be happy,.....we're going to kick his behind back to the Fatherland.

This is our first time through,..so patience,...let's finish this game and see how we all do.
Granted,..if it goes as bad as you're predicting,..then obvious game tweaks are in order,...but until then,..put the Depends Diapers on, and fight man fight.

BTW,..remember your "who reads manuals" comment. Stop reading the manuals,..you're driving yourself crazy.
And don't look at the squads.csv either.

k9mike
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by k9mike » Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:29 pm

Granfali....like I stated in earlier comment....please help me out in the turn/ending refreshing...etc...until I get this down. Sorry if sound stupid....just in case so I don't mess up.

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