Poland Campaign

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dickesKind
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Re: Poland Campaign

Post by dickesKind » Fri May 31, 2013 7:47 pm

LandMarine47 wrote:Well hopefully that's the end of your little argument!...
Yeah, then end ;)
Thomas and I are cool with each other and communicating via PM now :)
LM, do your job now! :lol: :wink:

LandMarine47
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Re: Poland Campaign

Post by LandMarine47 » Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:08 am

Ok my new PC will be around in a few weeks so for right now I want EVERYONE to throw more ideas into the bunch. As in more Battles units order of combat etc...
And to do a SP or MP first :)
Here are advantages and disadvantages.
Germans
Good: Air support and strong Tanks and arty. As well as Naval Support at Danzig. Well balanced forces and fast response and movement
Bad: Communication between Tanks and Infanrty are poor. As well as fire support. Weak Air Defence. No On Map Artillery and men and officers have a hard time coordinating combined assaults and units often get isolated.
Polish
Good: Good defence with MGs Mortars and AT as well as minefields. Strong Fortifications as well as a fair AA defence
Bad: Units are dispirted by the rapid advance of the Germans. Constantly "shell shocked" strongpoints are isolated from main defence lines. And communication between High Command and the Frontilne is poor. RAF is ineffective against German troops and are always engaging in dogfights. Officers are often absent caring to the wounded leaving troops to fend for themselves as they attempt to evacuate their fallen allies. Tanks are inferior to the German Panzers

Ranger
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Re: Poland Campaign

Post by Ranger » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:20 pm

LandMarine47 wrote:Ok my new PC will be around in a few weeks so for right now I want EVERYONE to throw more ideas into the bunch. As in more Battles units order of combat etc...
And to do a SP or MP first :)
Here are advantages and disadvantages.
Germans
Good: Air support and strong Tanks and arty. As well as Naval Support at Danzig. Well balanced forces and fast response and movement
Bad: Communication between Tanks and Infanrty are poor. As well as fire support. Weak Air Defence. No On Map Artillery and men and officers have a hard time coordinating combined assaults and units often get isolated.
Polish
Good: Good defence with MGs Mortars and AT as well as minefields. Strong Fortifications as well as a fair AA defence
Bad: Units are dispirted by the rapid advance of the Germans. Constantly "shell shocked" strongpoints are isolated from main defence lines. And communication between High Command and the Frontilne is poor. RAF is ineffective against German troops and are always engaging in dogfights. Officers are often absent caring to the wounded leaving troops to fend for themselves as they attempt to evacuate their fallen allies. Tanks are inferior to the German Panzers
i think you are mixing up the May 1940 German Army with the September 1939 German Army. Most of the German tanks were panzer 1s and 2s.

And It's sounds like you are more accurately describing the French Army in May/June 1940 and/or the Soviet Army in Barbarossa, than you are the Polish Army in September/October 1939-1945.

"Officers are often absent caring to the wounded leaving troops to fend for themselves as they attempt to evacuate their fallen allies." Where did you get this from? Officers often absent? The Polish Officer Corps was one the most professional and competent officer corps of the European Armies.

"Units are dispirted by the rapid advance of the Germans."???? Well the German advance really wasn't all that rapid. Most (or a very large part) of the German infantry still walked everywhere. Most of the artillery was horse drawn. And many German infantry units still used/had to use organic cavalry units for recon and scouting. As for "dispirited" (having lost enthusiasm and hope)... nothing could be farther from the truth. The Poles fought tooth and nail through to the very last days of the invasion, and then, even though they had lost their country, enough of them escaped from the Germans and Soviets and made thier way to Britain and France (and then back to Britian again) to still be the 4th largest Allied army in WW2. Way more than the Free French. That's not an act of being "dispirited", it's the exact opposite.

Here's a list of the last 4 (of 15 or 16) Polish cavalry charges in the 39 German/Soviet invasion of Poland. Notice that the last 4 are 21-27 days after the invasion started. Also notice that they are successful. You can't mount a cavalry charge if you're "dispirited".

September 21 - Battle of Kamionka Strumiłowa - 3rd squadron of the 1st Mounted Detachment (improvised) charged through German infantry who were preparing to assault the Polish positions. The preparations were paralysed and the Germans withdrew.[4]
September 23 - Krasnobród - 1st squadron of the 25th Wielkopolska Uhlan Regiment charged towards the town of Krasnobród. After heavy casualties, they reached the hilltop on which the town was located. A unit of German organic cavalry from the German 8th Infantry Division countercharged from the hill, but was repelled and the Poles captured the town and took the HQ[4] of the division, together with its commander and about 100 German soldiers. 40 Polish combatants previously taken prisoner by the Germans were also freed.
September 24 - Husynne - reserve squadron of the 14th Jazlowiec Uhlan Regiment (some 500 sabres), reinforced with an improvised cavalry unit of police and some remnants of divisional organic cavalry, was ordered to break through the Soviet infantry surrounding the Polish positions in the village of Husynne. The charge was led by the mounted police, and the Soviet forces withdrew in panic.[4] However, the attack was soon halted by a strong Soviet tank unit. Casualties were similar on both sides.
September 26 - Morańce - 27th Uhlan Regiment twice charged an entrenched German infantry battalion in the village of Morańce. Both charges were repelled with heavy casualties (the Poles lost 20 KIA and about 50 wounded, German losses are unknown). After the second charge the Germans sent out a soldier with a white flag and, after a short discussion with the Polish commander of the Nowogródek Cavalry Brigade, the Germans withdrew.[4]

The Polish Armed Forces didn't become "dispirited" until the war ended and it was clear that Britain, France, and USA were not going to keep their promises and that Poland had been sold out and given to Stalin and the Soviets.

It's ironic that the Western Allies declared war and eventually crushed Germany for invading Poland, but rewarded the Soviets for doing the exact same thing, by letting them keep all the Polish territory they took in 1939, and by giving them free reign over whatever was left of Poland after 1945.

Cheers,

Thomas

LandMarine47
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Re: Poland Campaign

Post by LandMarine47 » Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:54 pm

........ Wow ranger I feel like you should be the one making the shoots now :oops:
Now I do want to incorporate Calavary here but I don't have the scripts to do so. May have to contact someone for this

Ranger
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Re: Poland Campaign

Post by Ranger » Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:35 pm

LandMarine47 wrote:........ Wow ranger I feel like you should be the one making the shoots now :oops:.....
No Sir. I am merely attempting to provide an accurate and proper historical perspective and context.

What you do with it is up to you. :wink:

I'll make my own MP/SP versions if I ever have the time and get motivated enough. At the present, I have neither, and I can't say when, or if, I ever will.

Cheers,

Thomas

LandMarine47
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Re: Poland Campaign

Post by LandMarine47 » Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:24 am

Ranger wrote:
LandMarine47 wrote:........ Wow ranger I feel like you should be the one making the shoots now :oops:.....
No Sir. I am merely attempting to provide an accurate and proper historical perspective and context.

What you do with it is up to you. :wink:

I'll make my own MP/SP versions if I ever have the time and get motivated enough. At the present, I have neither, and I can't say when, or if, I ever will.

Cheers,

Thomas
Since your our own BA historian bring us a Ranger Scenario! Not much around and I'm sure you'll find the motivation! I found it in me to bring Poland To the drawing board. So far these are my current plans
1 Poland Axis and Allies
2 Italian Campaigns (Conflicted for either Axis Allies)
3 Long Range Desert Group Campaigns
4 Great War (Central Powers and the Allies)
5 Pacific (also conflicted)
6 Norway (conflicted)
7 101st and 82nd Airborne Campaigns (Overlord Market Garden the Bulge and Varsity)
8 Fallshmanjagers Campaigns
9 Rommel What ifs (Victory in Africa and Normandy)
10 SeaLion Germans
That's my basic line up as we wait for BA2

Wiesiek
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Re: Poland Campaign

Post by Wiesiek » Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:16 am

Hi Colleagues,

I will not comment historical aspects as I'm Pole but I like rock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mnxvdz65y8s

Pozdrawiam/Best regards
Wiesiek

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Re: Poland Campaign

Post by GottaLove88s » Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:37 am

The Poles were encouraged to revolt by direct radio broadcasts from Stalin, who then left Warsaw out to hang... Disgusting politics! :evil: :evil: :evil:

Waffen SS were brutal... 200,000 civilians killed... but revolutionaries surrendering at the end were recognised as uniformed combatants under the Geneva Convention (I don't believe the Nazis did this anywhere else, and probably only with some of the smarter generals thinking towards future War Crimes trials...)

The Warsaw Uprising (Polish: powstanie warszawskie) was a major World War II operation by the Polish resistance Home Army (Polish: Armia Krajowa) to liberate Warsaw from Nazi Germany. The rebellion was timed to coincide with the Soviet Union's Red Army approaching the eastern suburbs of the city and the retreat of German forces.[9] However, the Soviet advance stopped short, enabling the Germans to regroup and demolish the city while defeating the Polish resistance, which fought for 63 days with little outside support.

The uprising began on 1 August 1944, as part of a nationwide plan, Operation Tempest, when the Soviet Army approached Warsaw. The main Polish objectives were to drive the German occupiers from the city and help with the larger fight against Germany and the Axis powers. Secondary political objectives were to liberate Warsaw before the Soviets, to underscore Polish sovereignty by empowering the Polish Underground State before the Soviet-backed Polish Committee of National Liberation could assume control. Also, short-term causes included the threat of a German round-up of able-bodied Poles, and Moscow radio calling for the Uprising to begin.

Initially, the Poles established control over most of central Warsaw, but the Soviets ignored Polish attempts to establish radio contact and did not advance beyond the city limits. Intense street fighting between the Germans and Poles continued. By 14 September, Polish forces under Soviet high command occupied the east bank of the Wisła River opposite the insurgents' positions; but only 1,200 men made it across to the west bank, and they were not reinforced by the bulk of the Red Army. This, and the lack of Soviet air support from a base 5 minutes flying time away, led to allegations that Joseph Stalin tactically halted his forces to let the operation fail and allow the Polish insurrectionists to be crushed. Arthur Koestler called the Soviet attitude "one of the major infamies of this war which will rank for the future historian on the same ethical level with Lidice. "[10]

Winston Churchill pleaded with Stalin and Franklin D. Roosevelt to help Britain's Polish allies, to no avail. Despite the Soviets denying air clearance, Churchill sent over 200 low-level supply drops by the Royal Air Force, the South African Air Force and the Polish Air Force under British High Command. Later, after gaining Soviet air clearance, the US Army Air Force sent one high-level mass airdrop as part of Operation Frantic. Soviet Union refused to allow American bombers from Western Europe to land on Soviet airfields after dropping supplies to the Poles.[11]

Although the exact number of casualties remains unknown, it is estimated that about 16,000 members of the Polish resistance were killed and about 6,000 badly wounded. In addition, between 150,000 and 200,000 Polish civilians died, mostly from mass executions. Jews being harboured by Poles were exposed by German house-to-house clearances and mass evictions of entire neighbourhoods. German casualties totalled over 8,000 soldiers killed and missing, and 9,000 wounded. During the urban combat approximately 25% of Warsaw's buildings were destroyed. Following the surrender of Polish forces, German troops systematically leveled another 35% of the city block by block. Together with earlier damage suffered in the 1939 invasion of Poland and the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in 1943, over 85% of the city was destroyed by January 1945, when the course of the events in the Eastern Front forced the Germans to abandon the city.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Uprising
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347

cupoftea
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Re: Poland Campaign

Post by cupoftea » Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:01 am

Actually the Polish 7TP was much better than german panzer1s and 2s. However no more than 150 of them were made.
Let them hate me, as long as they fear me. Caligula

MacD2013
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Re: Poland Campaign

Post by MacD2013 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:17 am

Just quickly want to say that in your analysis of the Polish army that you should keep in mind the Polish army was (fairly) combat ready considering their war with the Soviets where they were able to halt the "Red Wave" in the 1920s. Poland's army because of this had plenty of combat tested officers.

The German advantage was one born out of what they learned in Spain in the 1930s. That complete cohesion between armour, infantry and air force was essential. It's there that the German army was unmatched in the early phases of WWII, as well as being technologically superior to the Poles. Britain and France not so much and in many cases German armour was inferior to French armour (just not how it was used).

samjohan
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Re: Poland Campaign

Post by samjohan » Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:07 pm

Poland trying to persuade army of well educated and skilled workers to go back and benefit country there instead.

Kayel Dee
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Re: Poland Campaign

Post by Kayel Dee » Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:17 am

i've always felt that poland, like the other european powers, were doomed in the early years by a number of things but imho chiefly was that their forces were operating under a doctrine developed for 19th century warfare (maybe 18th century in the case of the poles) while the germans were in the process of introducing a 20th century doctrine (one that seems as if it's being carried over to the 21st century)

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