Worst Unit

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TheGrayMouser
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Worst Unit

Post by TheGrayMouser » Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:50 pm

After playing this game awhile, i think I must say the worst unit in game is the offensive spear heavy infantry unit.. Time and time again these boys have failed me, whether its hoplites or roman Triari... Even when in clear terraign and in a nice mutualy supporting formation they get trashed by charging cavalry units, and not the big boys either (cats) but mere spear armed types who can frontally charge them and in a turn or so rout the whole lot.. Even worse the cavalry arent even very much damaged.
Anyone have similair thoughts on thse guys or other units?

deeter
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Post by deeter » Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:55 pm

I'm surprised you haven't had much luck with triarii. They have quality and armor, just not quantity. Your average protected types are usually toast, howver, but you can often get a lot of them for cheap.

Deeter

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Post by TheGrayMouser » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:00 pm

Well i could be exagerating a little w the Triari, i always try to use them as a reserve to protect a flank or whatnot, but they seem to go dowwn relatively easy as well..... Maybe because how i deploy then "near" bad going hex terraign (see my other post re terraign usage)
Wow, i cant stop blathering on today, i really need to do some work!

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Post by deeter » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:21 pm

Bad going can ruin any OF or Pike's day if in or attacking someone in. As for your terrain post, streams only disorder units in, not someone holding the banks. Check the terrain chart which, BTW, would be more useful if it had a hot key. I check terrain often and it's a hassle to find as things stand now.

Deeter

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Post by Morbio » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:21 pm

I agree with the comments regarding the hoplites. I never have them in my armies if I can avoid them, and I always target them on an opposing side if I can... they do crumble very quickly.

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Post by TheGrayMouser » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:29 pm

Morbio wrote:I agree with the comments regarding the hoplites. I never have them in my armies if I can avoid them, and I always target them on an opposing side if I can... they do crumble very quickly.

I think more than one of my Pyrhic armies fate has been sealed by those tactics :)

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Post by MesaDon » Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:11 am

Come on can anything be more useless then the "Women, children, and old men" battle (?) group?

Paisley
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Post by Paisley » Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:24 am

Superior light spear or lance heavy cavalry do surprisingly well in frontal charges against average hoplites. I'm not convinced they should.
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Post by 76mm » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:16 am

Paisley wrote:Superior light spear or lance heavy cavalry do surprisingly well in frontal charges against average hoplites.
Everyone does surprisingly well in frontal charges vs average hoplites...in my experience the hoplites are extremely lucky not to lose at least 15% upon impact with any heavy troops, and they don't do much better in melee.

I'm playing a couple games as Carthaginians right now, and they will be my last--the African spearmen and various mercenaries that Carthage has do not hold up well against, well, anything...

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Post by petergarnett » Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:49 am

Is that not the point with the Carthaginians - they tried to refuse/hold the centre for just long enough for the flanking wings to do their job?

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Post by 76mm » Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:17 pm

petergarnett wrote:Is that not the point with the Carthaginians - they tried to refuse/hold the centre for just long enough for the flanking wings to do their job?
That would be great if the Carthags had superior troops on the flank, but IMO they don't...the Carthags have a limited number of fairly mediocre undrilled heavy cav, and at least in my unskilled hands the LH tends to be chewed up pretty quickly as well. Proper (armored, drilled) heavy cav should be able to sweep the flanks. Maybe the Carthags would hold their own vs Mid-Republican Romans but no one has obliged me thus far.

Moreover, whatever is happening on the flanks, you'd think that the Carthags main line could at least duke it out a couple of turns, but the bulk of the Carthag main line is disrupted on impact and it is downhill from there. This experience is from the very limited dataset of two on-going games, but so far it isn't pretty.

I'd be curious if hear if people have had much success with the Carthags, wouldn't mind using them more but I suspect they can only really complete against certain armies.

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Post by Morbio » Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:54 pm

I've played against these a number of times and both Robert241167 (or some similar number) and Deeter have repeatedly kicked my ass with the Carthaginians, and I don't lose many games.

I'd go as far as saying that Carthage is the Nemesis for my Seleucid army :cry:

But whenever I play Carthage against others I tend to do terribly with them. I agree with your points and I think the key point is when they are facing impact troops, like the Roman legions - the spearmen just get disrupted too easily and it's downhill from there. Against Pikes, they do remarkably well, and the pikes tend to crumble fast once they drop below 75% (relatively easy to achieve with focused attacks on a single unit), and once the routing starts the nearby units lose cohesion which makes the line drop fast.

I think the key thing is to avoid the toe-to-toe with the legions, just withdraw and let the cavary do the work... but I agree that undrilled cavalry is very difficult to navigate into position. If the 1 hex facing change, that has been suggested, is adopted it will help a lot.

I also agree that the line should be able to 'duke it out' for at least a couple of turns, after all, it's not always easy to keep running!

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Post by lpgamble » Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:54 pm

Spearmen lose POA's pretty quickly. No other units suffer greater penalties for being Dis. If you have a big spearwall in the middle, this would be one time I would think about shelling out for an Inspirational leader. Every unit that can shed Dis greatly improves spears chances. This is also one of the unit types you don't want anywhere near disrupting terrain.

SRW1962
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Post by SRW1962 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:04 pm

I think this is the problem with playing armies against non-historical opponents, some armies are just not up to it. The Carthaginians did very well usually against Mid-Republican Romans, but whether they could do well against Parthians, Late Republican Romans, or Medieval Knights is another matter entirely. I do have LOTS (30 odd years worth) of experience playing against Carthaginians, my best friend and wargames buddy, is nuts about them and we have battled Rome vs Carthage for year after year and will probably do so for eternity when we pass over to the great Wargamers Heaven in the skies.

I must admit that its easier to beat the Carthaginians with the Romans than for them to beat the Romans, as they do need some special handling and a good appreciation of tactics. AS for the 'fairly mediocre undrilled heavy cav' they have, well that is double the amount the Romans get and it is ALL Superior, plus lots of LH support and it is not so mediocre at all considering who it was designed to fight against. Peter is right that the Carthaginians do need to hold the centre long enough for the cavalry to do the job on the flanks, and conversely the Romans need to smash the centre and hold their flanks. It does make for a great game and the Spearmen can defeat the Legions, if the Legions are 'softened up' first by the Impact foot of the Scutarii or Gauls, timing is everything with this army.

As for the Hoplite Armies, well, they tended to fight each other mostly unless they were killing Persians, when they did come across something a bit tasty namely Macedonians with their fancy pikes and cavalry and what not, they suffered badly and twas the end of them.

Not every army can be a good match for every other army for instance, it is largely taken for granted that the Roman army reached its pinnacle during the 1st-2nd century AD with a great combined arms approach on the battlefield, put this against Mid-Republican Roman armies and it should be fairly one sided to say the least.

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Post by Morbio » Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:14 pm

I agree with the previous post, but for a couple of points.

1) Carthage can't really make use of it's superior cavalry for a few reasons;
a) They are undrilled, so a nightmare to get into any really good position.
b) The Roman skirmishers impede all movement with impunity. They can't be ridden down and over time the collective 0-5% damage adds up and the cavalry maybe has one good charge in it before it become ineffective.
c) They can't destroy the Roman cavalry, and thus attack the Roman centre from the flank or rear, because the Roman cavalry simply evades. While the Roman cavalry is still in play then Carthage cavalry runs the risk of getting rear shunted and destroyed.

2) A lot of the Carthage foot is undrilled, this makes it difficult to keep withdrawing and to turn to attack quickly. For sure, drilled troops will catch undrilled relatively quickly.

I think if the problems with cavalry were sorted out, see my numerous posts, so that skirmishers can be caught and so that cavalry can engage similar cavalry more easily, then Carthage would be able to win some of the battles.

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Post by SRW1962 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:37 pm

The drilled/undrilled question only comes into play IF you need to do anything fnacy with the undrilled cavalry, if you simply wish to attack the Roman cavalry (as you should) then the Carthaginian cavalry is easily able to do that and by numbers/quality defeat the Romans.

The Roman skirmishers are countered by good and proper use of Carthaginian skirmishers and even some of the light cavalry if needed. Although the use of skirmishers, evades etc. does I agree need to be addressed.

As for Roman cavalry evades, this is where the Carthaginian light cavalry can cause havoc if used properly.

The Carthaginian foot shouldn't ever be trying to go backwards to stop the Romans from contacting them, they should simply stay put and allow the Romans to march across the field to contact them, when close enough the MF should combat the legions with elephant support if available and soften them up for the spearmen. The cavalry incidentally should NOT be too far away from the main army the idea is that the Carthaginians are trying to execute a pincer movement and counter the Romans wedge formation.

I am making the assumption though that the players have deployed the Romans in a historical formation with Velites out front followed by a line of Hastati, a line of Princepes and a line of Triarii, with maybe some allied foot divided on each flank and the cavalry maybe echeloned back on each flank to avoid the Carthaginian cavalry at all costs. As a good Roman this is my one and only formation although sometimes the Triarii do come out to play on the flanks if and when needed, basically when I am in big trouble!

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Post by Morbio » Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:01 pm

All you write is valid and well thought out. The only problem is that it takes too long to do it. By the time you've pinned the LF and beaten them, then pinned the cavalry and beaten it, then navigated to the rear of the Roman lines , the Roman line has contacted and broken the Carthaginian line.

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Post by SRW1962 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:17 pm

You are right, it is quite often the case from my experience of playing against the Carthaginians, but hopefully when the skirmisher issue is addressed that will make things better for the Carthaginian and also the issue of drilled troops being so much more useful than their undrilled counterparts. Another thing is never to allow the Romans an inspired general unless Scipio Africanus is leading them, they should be field or troop commanders

Hopefully my Carthaginian friend will not see this post as he really does have to work very hard indeed in order to win any game against Rome.

In fact thinking about it, what the hell are we talking about? Carthaginians are so much better than Romans, its a wonder at all that the poor Romans ever win! It must take a truly brilliant General to beat the mighty Carthaginian hordes!

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worst unit

Post by mschund » Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:45 am

I love to target the medium spear armed infantry, they go down faster than a boxer throwing a fight...

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