Another evade error maybe or rear charge error.

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Xiggy
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Another evade error maybe or rear charge error.

Post by Xiggy » Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:01 pm

A unit of light horse charged 2 other light horse and they both evaded away and had to stop because another unit was in the way. The charging light horse contacted both evaders and disordered both of them. I did not think you could make 2 attacks.

And I am seeing a lot of instances where pikes or other HF or MF charging and impacting knights and and other units in the rear are not disordering the knights or other units on impact. I was under the impression that you lost 1 level of cohesion automatically when you were charged in the rear, except by lights.

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Post by TheGrayMouser » Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:40 pm

Thats nothing, in a current league game I had a medium spear charge an enemy light foot kern, kern evaded, my medium caught him, and somehow lost the combat and was diordered! grrrrr.

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Post by Gersen » Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:12 pm

...and LF are still getting caught too often by HF for my liking. I don't think 1.3.5 has fixed this.

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Re: Another evade error maybe or rear charge error.

Post by CheerfullyInsane » Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:19 pm

Xiggy wrote:A unit of light horse charged 2 other light horse and they both evaded away and had to stop because another unit was in the way. The charging light horse contacted both evaders and disordered both of them. I did not think you could make 2 attacks.

And I am seeing a lot of instances where pikes or other HF or MF charging and impacting knights and and other units in the rear are not disordering the knights or other units on impact. I was under the impression that you lost 1 level of cohesion automatically when you were charged in the rear, except by lights.
Well, it's not two attacks, it's two separate cohesion-tests due to having enemies in the rear-arc.
And I never thought the loss of cohesion was automatic from charged from the rear. AFAIK it's a cohesion test with some pretty hefty minus-modifiers, but it is possible to pass, especially for high-morale units.
TheGrayMouser wrote: Thats nothing, in a current league game I had a medium spear charge an enemy light foot kern, kern evaded, my medium caught him, and somehow lost the combat and was diordered! grrrrr.
Rear-attacks only result in ++POA. Again, the odds are against it, but one can lose such a charge, as I've learned much to my chagrin.

Whole thing brings me back to what is ultimately my biggest peeve about this game. Too much randomness is involved.
It's all very well that random acts of bravery can occur (otherwise we'd die from sheer boredom), but one should also have a reasonable idea of what the outcome will be, extreme luck not withstanding.
What I'd really like was a conversion to a D10 instead of D6 system, allowing for more varied results.
Though such a change would probably bring indignant howls of complaint from every TT fan out there, so I'm not holding my breath. :wink:

Lars
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Xiggy
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Post by Xiggy » Fri Sep 24, 2010 8:22 pm

I think there are currently a few issues with the evade/breakoff pathing. This has to do with why some units make a turn and dont leave the map and others just leave the map. It extends to getting caught in the rear and also to breaking of units making 3 turns or more and moving beyond charge distance. I dont have a problem with random results, the battle of midway, bastogne, and finland keeping russia out, vietnam, and afganistan are prime example of randomness in the last century.

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Post by CheerfullyInsane » Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:30 pm

Xiggy wrote:I think there are currently a few issues with the evade/breakoff pathing. This has to do with why some units make a turn and dont leave the map and others just leave the map. It extends to getting caught in the rear and also to breaking of units making 3 turns or more and moving beyond charge distance. I dont have a problem with random results, the battle of midway, bastogne, and finland keeping russia out, vietnam, and afganistan are prime example of randomness in the last century.
Eeerr......
Bastogne: Trying to move armored columns down icy goat-paths without sufficient fuel, and under enemy air-superiority.
Winter War: Using masses of untrained infantry against a highly motivated enemy on their turf (And let's not forget that Finland eventually sued for peace)
Vietnam/Afghanistan: Trying to use mechanized forces for a job they're thoroughly unsuited for.

My point is that with the possible exception of Midway (know bugger-all about naval combat so I can't say), the key aspects are readily identifiable, at least in hindsight.
I have no problem with semi-random results, they're part and parcel of wargames IMHO. If every result was predictable, and it became an all-skill game (such as e.g. chess) I'd lose interest in a heartbeat.
However, I do think that the game is skewed too far towards random, to such a degree that it becomes annoying.
In TGMs example, those kerns should've been a bloody smear on the battleground, with the MF dancing triumphantly around brandishing bloody heads on spears.

Lars
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Post by cothyso » Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:43 pm

LF being catched by cavalry in 1.3.5?!! who are you kidding? I am thinking to leave LoEG and FoG multiplayer altogether exactly because of the opposite:

currently playing a game against Ironclad's Sarmatians. Chased them all over the map, the turn count is at 16, and my cavalry (8 BG's, one of them being the CiC) had yet to catch their second damn LF. LF should evade at most 2 hexes away at first cavalry charge, and have no escape at a immediately following second one.

I don't have time to play hide and seek for 20 turns, nor I find any fun in this.

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Post by IainMcNeil » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:10 am

To catch LF you must move as close them as possible before charging. If you do you'll catch them most of the time. I've had great trouble getting away from anyone with LF!

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Post by cothyso » Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:56 am

well.. and what if he keeps 4 hexes away all the time? it is exactly the distance at which a bow can shoot, while for cavalry is the maximum distance to charge. then what? how come a LF can evade 4 hexes away, the same maximum charge/travel distance for cavalry? are they faster/more resilient than horses? too bad the ancients didn't knew this, they wouldn't have spent fortunes for the few horses they could gather..

make them evade 2 hexes when first charged from maximum distance (4 hexes away), which mean in the next turn my cavalry can charge from 2 hexes away and eventually catch them, if not, then for sure in the 3rd turn.

right now, they can stay at 4 hexes forever (as in the 21 turns game with ironclad) if you don't have enough troops to make a walking wall across the whole map (which means you have to over-strecth your line, which makes it in turn vulnerable to concentrated high quality units penetration).

LF running away from cavalry (excepting cataphracts) for countless turns should never happen.

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Post by IainMcNeil » Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:26 am

This is by design from the expert team who designed the tabletop rules so if you have an issue you'll have to justify it to them :)

If they are retreating 4 hexes a turn they will run out of map very quickly.

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Post by cothyso » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:17 am

too bad there are no replays implemented yet, I would have shown you my game vs Ironclad, which took like 21 turns to finish, from which only last 3 were actual fighting, the other 18 being chasing him across a big map (from S to N, then to W and finally to SW corner).

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Post by IainMcNeil » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:30 am

It is definitely possible to catch them. When chasing LF you need to block off the retreat routes and corner them. E.g. herd them to wherever you plan to pin them. Close down gaps they can escape through.

In addition, when playing DAG battles facing opponents your army is not suited to is part of the deal. I dont see a solution really as I think the troop interactions work well.

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Post by TheGrayMouser » Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:13 pm

iainmcneil wrote:It is definitely possible to catch them. When chasing LF you need to block off the retreat routes and corner them. E.g. herd them to wherever you plan to pin them. Close down gaps they can escape through.

In addition, when playing DAG battles facing opponents your army is not suited to is part of the deal. I dont see a solution really as I think the troop interactions work well.
This is a little disapointing to hear, after all, lights were not used to block heavier units from evading/escaping nor were heavier units used to block lights from escaping.... I dont want to herd cats in my games!

Can we not think outside the box (or inside) with regards to light foot?

After all, the game scale is 50 meters a hex give or take, Please tell me any time in history where skirmishers armed with short range weapons( ie javelins, maybe 30 yards??) aproached formed cavalry units from the front and with impunity peppered them w darts and could run away in CLEAR terrain???

Cavalry in clear terrian was the bane of skirmishes historically, why can in not be so in a game that feels "right" in almost every other aspect?

Why not just simplyfy the light foot evade rules with cavalry?

if in frontal arc and 1 hex away, the cavalry will ALWAYS catch them(assuming skirmishes cant retreat into covered terrain)
2 hexes away and more? well I guess you could revert to the way it is now...

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Post by gudin » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:09 pm

CheerfullyInsane wrote:
Xiggy wrote:... the battle of midway... are prime example of randomness in the last century.
My point is that with the possible exception of Midway
Recent book called "Shattered Sword" on Midway tends to debunk what a "miracle" it was. The allies had more planes, and the Japanese ships' fire control systems were so bad that the odds were not as one-sided as we're led to believe. Also, the Japanese pilot's were far better trained in coordinated attacks, but in this case that actually benefitted the Americans. The myth of the "Miracle at Midway" makes a much better story for the victors though.

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Post by gudin » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:18 pm

TheGrayMouser wrote:
iainmcneil wrote:It is definitely possible to catch them. When chasing LF you need to block off the retreat routes and corner them. E.g. herd them to wherever you plan to pin them. Close down gaps they can escape through.

In addition, when playing DAG battles facing opponents your army is not suited to is part of the deal. I dont see a solution really as I think the troop interactions work well.
This is a little disapointing to hear, after all, lights were not used to block heavier units from evading/escaping nor were heavier units used to block lights from escaping.... I dont want to herd cats in my games!

Can we not think outside the box (or inside) with regards to light foot?

After all, the game scale is 50 meters a hex give or take, Please tell me any time in history where skirmishers armed with short range weapons( ie javelins, maybe 30 yards??) aproached formed cavalry units from the front and with impunity peppered them w darts and could run away in CLEAR terrain???

Cavalry in clear terrian was the bane of skirmishes historically, why can in not be so in a game that feels "right" in almost every other aspect?

Why not just simplyfy the light foot evade rules with cavalry?

if in frontal arc and 1 hex away, the cavalry will ALWAYS catch them(assuming skirmishes cant retreat into covered terrain)
2 hexes away and more? well I guess you could revert to the way it is now...
In the TT game, which has no hexes of course, movement is in MU (basically an inch for 15mm), cavalry will catch LF if it starts w/in 1 MU, and rolls higher on an unmodified D6 than the LF. I believe their position is that ancient cavalry were far less well drilled and commanded than, say, Napoleonic cavalry, so LF could be better able to react than the Cav can act. Seemed weird to me, but c'est la vie.

There are other things in the TT game that do not seem reflected though. Pinning doesn't seem to work, the LF to your front can simply move to your flank and prevent you from charging, when they can't in the TT game (assuming you start within the 2 MU "restricted zone"), and MF is FAR more mobile. In the TT game, if they turn around, they can not move. Period. Ever. Also, if they are undrilled, they have to do a CMT to turn around. Thus it's impossible to use MF bow like people routinely do in digital, to shoot until they get close, then turn and run, then turn again and shoot, and repeat until they're sufficiently whittled down.

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Post by TheGrayMouser » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:25 pm

well, my point is the light foot skirmishers arnt reacting, they are ACTING by placing themselves one hex away from the fronts of formed cavalry to fire short range missles...knowing full well they can "run away" 90% of the time.

I have no data on whether ancient cavalry could react "faster or slower" than 19th cavalry, but one thing is clear , a group of cavalry should be able to ctach foot when they are 30-50 meters away... Sure, a man can reach full speed faster that a horse, (I believe a man will beat a horse in a 50 yard sprint), but once that horse is moving, the foot will be caught....

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Post by Xiggy » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:58 pm

The Americans also broke the Japanese code, so they knew they were coming, just not where they were. The randomness of midway, was that the armeicans found the Japanese first, if it had been the other way, history would have been much different. There is tons of randomness in history. The Iron Brigade in the American Civil war, routed after only being under fire for a short time late in the war after being rock solid in early battles.

If this game was so random, then why is it that pantherboy has not lost a battle since Beta? He seems to beat everyone, bad dice or no. I think we tend to look at key moments in a battle where we get a chain route of 3 or 4 units, or 2 or 3 mounted break off and end up behind your line. If we looked at all the combat results in a game, you would be surprised how even they are.

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Post by Gersen » Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:38 pm

I take back my earlier post. The LF being caught in an earlier game were indeed MF after closer inspection, and subsequent games in 1.3.5 have had sensible evasion tactics all round. Indeed as Ian says - the best way to catch lights now is to block off their escape routes.

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Post by TheGrayMouser » Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:28 pm

Gersen wrote:I take back my earlier post. The LF being caught in an earlier game were indeed MF after closer inspection, and subsequent games in 1.3.5 have had sensible evasion tactics all round. Indeed as Ian says - the best way to catch lights now is to block off their escape routes.

Well, it might be the best way as far as the game allows, but I find it neither realistic nor satisfying

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Post by deeter » Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:49 pm

Ditto.

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