84 things . . .

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stockwellpete
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84 things . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:14 am

Dan, I posted this yesterday in the main part of the forum. It might be helpful if you could just read through it and identify which ones might be bugs and which ones are conscious design decisions by yourself. I know it is not possible for you to exactly reproduce the original game with the new coding. I hesitated to post this here yesterday because I was wondering whether it was anything to do with it being a "converted" scenario. What do you think?

I have just played a solo game of one of my own "converted" scenarios (Neville's Cross 1346) and encountered the following issues.

1) Two steady English men-at-arms units attacked a steady Scottish spear unit; the first impact attack "fragmented" the unit, the second impact attack "routed" it. This is different from the original version in that a unit wouldn't get two cohesion drops in the same impact phase. (BUG)

2) Throughout the game units displayed an "S" indicator to show that they were "severely disordered" even though they appeared to be standing on clear terrain. On closer inspection the terrain had a grey tinge to it but it was not as pronounced as "broken ground". As I designed the scenario myself I am fairly certain that these were written as clear hexes. Has anybody else noticed this? (BUG)

3) When a unit has moved as far as it can and/or it has fired it goes a darker colour to signify that its turn is finished. However, some units retain their normal colour even when it is not possible to do anything else with them that turn.(BUG)

4) It is now possible to move a unit part of its allowance, then go off and move other units, and then come back and complete the turn of the first unit. In the old version each unit completed its move in turn. (DESIGN)

5) An English spear unit "routed" a Scottish spear unit after a melee, but then "disrupted" itself in pursuit.(BUG)

6) A situation occurred where two adjacent English men-at-arms units were in contact with two adjacent Scottish spear units and one Scottish spear unit was routed by one of the English men-at-arms units, but then was pursued by the other English unit (because the successful English unit was still in contact with the other Scottish spear unit). This would not have happened in the original version.(BUG)

7) "Routed" units regularly disappeared throughout the game even when there were plenty of empty hexes to rout through.(BUG: file sent to Dan 14/7)

8) A "routed" English unit moved straight through a "steady" English longbowmen unit without disrupting it! In subsequent turns I could not move or shoot the longbow unit - it remained stuck there until the end of the game. I was also able to move a friendly mounted knight unit into that hex after this.(BUG)

9) One Scottish spear unit attacked a "steady" English spear unit on the end of the battleline. The English spear unit immediately "routed" and the English spear unit next to it then "fragmented". Nothing like this would happen in the original version, the most you might get is a "fragment" on the unit receiving, or delivering, the charge.(BUG)

10) An English mounted knight unit routed a "fragmented" Scottish spear unit and while pursuing it came into contact with another enemy unit and proceeded to melee with in that same turn.(BUG: file sent to Dan 14/7)

11) An English longbowmen unit moved past a Scottish skirmisher unit to hit the rear of a Scottish spearmen unit. The skirmisher unit did not evade at all and remained in contact with the English longbowmen unit. On the next turn the Scottish skirmisher unit could neither melee nor move away but after I ended the Scottish turn a melee with the English longbowmen unit did take place. On the next English turn the longbowmen unit was still free to move away and melee with another "fragmented" Scottish unit. I was unable to move the Scottish skirmisher unit on subsequent turns. (BUG)

12) A Scottish heavy foot unit routed 5 hexes when their normal movement allowance is 2 hexes.(BUG: file sent to Dan 14/7)

13) I moved a Scottish spear unit up to support another spear unit already in contact with the enemy. The supporting Scottish unit then "melee-ed" with the English unit even though it was not in contact with it! (BUG)

14) A Scottish spear unit was denied a clear hex within its movement range to attack a mounted English knight unit even though it was free to attack other English units in range.(BUG)

15) A steady English cavalry unit routed a "fragmented" Scottish skirmisher unit and then automatically pursued it, moving through a hex next to a Scottish spear unit before making contact with another Scottish spear unit in an adjacent hex. On making contact the cavalry unit "fragmented".(BUG)

16) An English archer moved one hex to make two targets available but was not able to shoot.(BUG)

17) As the battle progressed it became clearer that some hexes could not be entered by any unit.(BUG)

18) An English men-at-arms unit attacked a "fragmented" Scottish spear unit and routed it. The routed unit moved back 3 hexes and on the way "disrupted" a friendly unit that then proceeded to move forward into a hex containing an enemy unit. So there were two units in the same hex!(BUG)

19) Scottish archers in range of English spearmen standing on a hill were not able to shoot over the heads of friendly soldiers at them.(BUG: file sent to Dan 14/7)

20) By the end of the game there were 6 or 7 units that were "stuck" on the battlefield. They could not be moved or shoot although they were able to rally from time to time.BUG

21) An English men-at-arms unit pursued a routed skirmisher and hit the side of a Scottish spear unit which then "fragmented".(BUG)

22) Some English longbowmen units were able to enter the hexes of friendly units.
(BUG)

23) A light horse unit chased off two screening light foot crossbowmen but then continued into contact with an enemy HF unit. No melee took place. In the old version the LH would not have continued into the HF unit.(BUG)

24) It is compulsory to watch the replay of your opponent's turn before making your own. ("Shift to end" button will be activated soon)

25) I have just started a Vikings v Normans game and it is being played in a desert. Why is this even possible?(BUG)

26) Using the chat facility and a previous message I sent to another player in a different game appeared in the chat box.(BUG)

27) A crossbow unit shot through 2 hexes of woods to hit an enemy unit in open space beyond the woods. This would not be possible in the original game.(BUG: file sent to Dan 15/7)

28) Artillery on a hill could not shoot over the heads of enemy skirmishers (not on a hill) to hit infantry or cavalry behind them. Line of sight would not have been blocked in the original game. BUG: file sent to Dan 14/7

29) A crossbow unit on a hill could not shoot over the heads of friendly troops (not on a hill) to hit enemy units. Line of sight would not have been blocked in the original game.(BUG)

30) Units on top of a hill, one clear hex back from the edge, cannot be seen by enemy units on lower ground.(BUG: file sent to Dan 14/7)

31) A heavy foot infantry unit unsuccessfully pursued a routed light foot unit 4 hexes.(BUG)

32) A light foot unit, unsuccessfully pursuing another light foot unit was still able to shoot at the end of that pursuit.(BUG)

33) A light foot unit, unsuccessfully pursued by a heavy foot unit, was unable to move on its next turn and was then caught by the heavy foot unit and destroyed.(BUG)

34) A disrupted pike men unit routed a fragmented light foot unit, and after pursuing it, came into contact with another enemy light foot unit. The disrupted pikemen unit then fragmented and the new enemy light foot unit disrupted.(BUG)

35) A routed pike men unit still had a red sword symbol showing with combat odds.(BUG)

36) A pursuing light foot unit moved into the hex behind an enemy heavy foot unit and disrupted it.(BUG file sent to Dan 14/7)

37) The deployment area has been reduced to three rows.(DESIGN)

38) Accepted a paired challenge to play the official scenario "Second St Albans". In both games I am the Lancastrians.(BUG)

39) The timing of the melees is wrong. In the old game you would move a unit into melee and you would hear the "fighting" and then the melee result would come up. In the new version the melee result comes up just as the units make contact. Sometimes the enemy unit will disappear instantaneously. (BUG but on the "to do" list)

40) Woods and hills do not seem to block line of sight. Archers can shoot straight through/over them.(BUG)

41) I wanted to melee with an enemy unit in the woods but the trees blocked out my view of the combat odds.(BUG)

42) Two identical steady HF defensive spear units were in combat with each other. One unit was given 2 die in the melee, the other was given 4.(BUG)

43) A mounted cavalry unit "broke off" from a melee with a light foot unit.(BUG)

44) A light foot unit moved through an enemy cavalry unit and then was able to shoot at that cavalry unit.(BUG)

45) A light foot unit stopped in a hex adjacent to an enemy cavalry unit and did not melee with it.(BUG)

46) There are no scenario descriptions anymore and the mini-map no longer shows the troops deployed in their starting positions.(DESIGN)

47) Units that come into combat via impact at angles other than front to front, do not change facing until the melee is resolved in the next turn. This changes game play.(BUG)

48) In all the Viking DAG lists, the units labelled "Viking freemen with supporting archers" are missing their offensive spear melee weapons. (BUG)

49) There is no deployment phase in multiplayer DAG games.(BUG)

50) The message window is far too small. (DESIGN)

51) The choice of evade requires the mouse right click option as per the earlier version in addition to the on screen button. (DESIGN)

52). Generals do not exert a command of control effect on their troops with respect to being able to double move after they themselves have moved. In other words troops in their command and control radius before they move can double move, but if the general moves troops that are brought into the command and control area, or remain in the command and control area, cannot double move.(BUG)

53) Some of the new troop types are incorrect. Heavy foot models (Freeman with supporting archers) in the Viking list are in fact LF. (BUG)

54) There is no option to surrender during a game.(DESIGN)

55) Shooting arcs for non-skirmishers now appear as a full circle around the element and do not show the shooting arc as per the old version.(DESIGN)

56) The map can move off screen when scrolling. It needs to lock at the map boundaries as per the old version.(DESIGN)

57) How do English archers deploy stakes?(BUG)

58) It appears that Drilled and Undrilled HF have the same movement capability, which is incorrect.(BUG)

59) In some multiplayer games the map is reversed after every move.(BUG)

60) Saved games against AI have become unplayable. They are still there on the screen but cannot be loaded.(BUG)

61) End of turn alignment to combat, cohesion tests, routing and rallying is impossible to follow as it happens simultaneously. The end of turn phase should follow and display a sequence, firstly by each action i.e. routing, rallying etc. and then during each action it should show the effected elements responses sequentially and not simultaneously.(BUG)

62) The coloured base markers are too prominent. There should also be an option to remove them if desired (they look like skateboards).(DESIGN)

63) When turning a stationary English archer unit to shoot it automatically places stakes and cannot then shoot. This doesn't happen to other archer elements in the same game. I then moved the element one hex backwards and the back to its original hex and the stakes once again appear.(BUG)

64) Archers with emplaced stakes can change facing and still shoot.BUG

65) Heavy foot movement is inconsistent. I have just advanced a Roman legionary unit one hex in open ground and it is unable to turn.(BUG)

66) On ending a turn in a multiplayer DAG game the screen went black and a message saying "Quitting to Main Menu" appeared but the game hung.(BUG)

67) Light foot skirmishers cannot change evade setting after moving if they do not remain within the command radius of a leader. (BUG)

68) Dismounting (alternate form) is possible after the battle has started. (BUG)

69) Using Wolves of the Sea DAG in a non-multiplayer game; at deployment with the coloured bases ("skateboards") it is not possible to differentiate between the main force and the ally without reading the detailed troop descriptions of each element. No text actually states it is an ally. This is time consuming and will be a problem when using Indians with Indian allies. (BUG)

70) Allied troops can get double moves even if they are in control of the non-allied generals (only C-in-C, not sub-generals) and not their own general. (BUG)

71) During re-play, the evade statuses of your opponent's units are displayed. (BUG)

72) Skirmishers in woods (at the edge) remained 'hidden' after shooting. (BUG)

73) Fog of war and double moves are available in scenario games but not D.A.G. (BUG)

74) Units do not rout off the sides of the playing area. They hit the side and then rout towards the baseline and then come off. The problem is that a pursuing enemy pursues until the enemy is destroyed or reaches the base edge.(BUG)

75) A light Cavalry unit (bow + light spear) refused an order to charge, even though the target was a routing unit. I don't believe this was possible in the original?(BUG)

76) A chariot unit disrupted by archery was charged by an Elephant, and suffered a cohesion step loss in melee combat. Rather than becoming fragmented, it displayed "DD". On the following turn, after additional melee losses, it routed.(BUG)

77) Light cavalry unit refused to contact a camp. (BUG)

78) Sometimes it is not possible to move a unit at all. (BUG: file sent to Dan 17/7)

79) A mounted knight unit was able to move through a friendly HF unit. (BUG: file sent to Dan 17/7)

80) Light artillery units are able to move into melee contact with enemy units. (BUG: file sent to Dan 17/7)

81) There is no sound effect when a unit "anarchy" charges. (BUG)

82) A unit pursued a routed enemy unit even though it was still in contact with another enemy unit. (BUG: file sent to Dan 19/7)

83) Result screen at the of a game does not always show the correct result. (BUG)

84) "Disordered" and "Disrupted" status of unit can be confusing. It would be better to use lower case "d" and "s" for "disordered" and "seriously disordered". (DESIGN)

alzado_77
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Re: 26 things . . .

Post by alzado_77 » Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:30 am

Jeez Pete, logging all this down comes close to self-harming!

Quite an eye-opener though and well done for sticking at it. These are pretty serious issues you've pinpointed.

ianiow
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Re: 29 things . . .

Post by ianiow » Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:25 am

Great analysis Pete!

TJD
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Re: 29 things . . .

Post by TJD » Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:43 am

Thank you Pete for these meticulous observations. I haven't played FoG in a few years and have lost what little expertise I may have had, so I haven't been able to comment on specifics, but I can say that the combat results and mechanics now seem often quite different from what I recall. It seems a different game.

fogman
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Re: 37 things . . .

Post by fogman » Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:05 am

number 2

the scenario conversion process adds rough to clear terrain. curiously, the lower panel will still say clear (in this case, road)
Capture5.jpg
Capture5.jpg (151.26 KiB) Viewed 2701 times

stockwellpete
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Re: 37 things . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:28 am

fogman wrote:number 2

the scenario conversion process adds rough to clear terrain. curiously, the lower panel will still say clear (in this case, road)
Capture5.jpg
OK. Thanks for that, fogman. I thought there was something odd going on.

stockwellpete
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Re: 39 things . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:27 am

Woods do not seem to block line of sight. Archers can shoot straight through them.

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Re: 45 things . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:16 pm

43) A mounted cavalry unit "broke off" from a melee with a light foot unit.

44) A light foot unit moved through an enemy cavalry unit and then was able to shoot at that cavalry unit.

45) A light foot unit stopped in a hex adjacent to an enemy cavalry unit and did not melee with it.

ianiow
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Re: 45 things . . .

Post by ianiow » Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:42 pm

BUG: In all the Viking DAG lists, the units labelled "Viking freemen with supporting archers" are missing their offensive spear melee weapons.

Cunningcairn
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Re: 48 things . . .

Post by Cunningcairn » Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:04 pm

Heavy foot movement is inconsistent. I have just advanced a Roman legionary one hex in open ground and he is unable to turn.

Cunningcairn
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Re: 48 things . . .

Post by Cunningcairn » Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:09 pm

On ending a turn in a multiplayer DAG game the screen went black and a message saying "Quitting to MainMenu" appeared and the the game hung.

Cunningcairn
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Re: 66 things . . .

Post by Cunningcairn » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:29 pm

Playing Vikings.
1. Some elements cannot be selected after moving full distance but others can.
2. LF skirmishes cannot change evade setting after moving.
3. Dismounting (alternate form) is possible after a few turns. If this is design please keep it.

Cunningcairn
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Re: 66 things . . .

Post by Cunningcairn » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:36 pm

Roman RoR game.

Bugs appear to be fixed. I was able to deploy and "skateboards" are missing. Is this the case or are the bugs only there with new lists?

stockwellpete
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Re: 66 things . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:51 pm

Cunningcairn wrote:Roman RoR game.

Bugs appear to be fixed. I was able to deploy and "skateboards" are missing. Is this the case or are the bugs only there with new lists?
Which bugs are fixed? All of them? :shock:

Cunningcairn
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Re: 66 things . . .

Post by Cunningcairn » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:51 pm

1. Baggage camp is not visible when out of line of sight. More realistic and should stay if it is a bug and not a design.
2. Is the message window supposed to disappear at the end of each player's turn?

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Re: 66 things . . .

Post by Cunningcairn » Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:22 pm

Cunningcairn wrote:Roman RoR game.

Bugs appear to be fixed. I was able to deploy and "skateboards" are missing. Is this the case or are the bugs only there with new lists?
Skateboards are back in a non-multiplayer with Vikings.

Cunningcairn
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Re: 66 things . . .

Post by Cunningcairn » Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:29 pm

Wolves of the Seas DAG non-multiplayer game
1. At deployment with skateboards you cannot differentiate between main force and ally without reading detailed troop descriptions of each element. No text actually states it is an ally. This is time consuming and will be a problem when using Indians with Indian allies.
2. Allied troops can get double moves if they are in control of the non-allied generals and not their own general.

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Re: 66 things . . .

Post by Cunningcairn » Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:58 pm

1. Evade and follow up directions are flawed.
2. HF OSp element charged enemy LF in contact with own LF which had not turned to face the enemy LF. Enemy LF routs from HF OSp charge and own LF pursues.
Last edited by Cunningcairn on Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

stockwellpete
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Re: 66 things . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:02 pm

Cunningcairn wrote: 3. F = Fragment on elements. What does S signify?
S= severely disordered.

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Re: 66 things . . .

Post by Cunningcairn » Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:08 pm

Follow up appears to be random. Sometimes elements are pursuing and sometimes not. Can't quite work out the reason yet.

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