Battle of Formigny, 1450

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stockwellpete
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Battle of Formigny, 1450

Post by stockwellpete » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:38 pm

One of the last battles of the 100 Years War. The English are desperately trying to recover Normandy . . .

EDIT: FINAL VERSION

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15461007/Battle ... 201450.rar
Last edited by stockwellpete on Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by stockwellpete » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:12 am

Updated.

tonymcenery
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Post by tonymcenery » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:09 am

I enjoyed this! Played as the English and got a nasty surprise at the first French turn. I then really had to get stuck into the French, and a nice little melee ensued. Neat. Best, Tony

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Post by stockwellpete » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:47 pm

tonymcenery wrote:I enjoyed this! Played as the English and got a nasty surprise at the first French turn. I then really had to get stuck into the French, and a nice little melee ensued. Neat. Best, Tony
Thanks Tony. Somebody else has said that they feel it is too easy for the French - I hope to give him a game soon. Did you play against the AI? Who eventually prevailed?

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Post by tonymcenery » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:04 pm

Yeah, I played the AI - and the English won. I sent a small force to hold up the bulk of the French in the woods for some time, then I got off the hill and went to within bow range to engage the French main force. I just finished the off before the French cavalry came out of the woods in some force. I enjoyed it.

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Post by stockwellpete » Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:34 am

I am playing this with somebody else, Tony, and they have been having great fun not telling me that one of the French units is set up on the wrong side! :lol: :lol: So I have corrected that now.

I played a solo game last night and I did feel it was a little unbalanced. Although the French were the historical victors I sort of felt that the English player in a multi-player game wouldn't have much chance. The research that I have done on this battle does give me a little leeway to tweak things. The English are said to have had around 3,000 archers and 1,000 men at arms at the battle - but I have given them an extra 400 men-at-arms to compensate for the weakness I perceive in the shooting power of longbowmen in FOG. Historically, this is not too much of a stretch. Initially Sir Thomas Kyriell had 3,000 men under his command and Sir Matthew Gough had 2,000 - but they suffered considerable casualties at Valognes, so they had around 4,000 between them at Formigny. With the French, I am a little bit confused about troop numbers. I have 3,000 with the Comte de Clermont and "1,200 mounted Bretons" with Arthur, Connetable de Richemont (the future Duke of Brittany) - but then I have other figures talking about 2,500 French infantry and 2,000 "cavalry" at the battle.

So this is where I can use "historical imagination" to balance out the wargame. First of all, Brittany was quite a small duchy and I don't think it would have had 1200 mounted "knights" so I have changed most of them to "protected" cavalry. Secondly, if those totals of 2,500 and 2,000 are correct then that would mean giving Clermont control of around 3,300 men. I have just done a solo game with these new armies and the French won 19/22 against 34/22 - so you see the English army really collapsed at the end as the mounted knights and cavalry broke into their centre and started making rear attacks. I think that I will have to get a copy of Froissart for these 100YW scenarios - there are extracts available online (he was writing from about 1360 onwards - and he is very good about the detail of armies and personalities and the various battles.

The updated version is in the first thread as usual.

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Post by tonymcenery » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:45 am

Interesting Pete - interpretation is important in making these games playable sometimes. A good example of this from the Swords and Scimitars pack is Hattin - this has big historical mistakes in it, for example i.)most of the templars had been bumped off before the battle, so the military orders are there in far to large numbers and ii.) the Crusader infantry was sick at being shot at by the Muslim forces so set themselves up away from the king and sat the battle out. But the battle is made playable as a result of the reinterpretation. Saladin's triumph at Hattin was to have won the battle before it began. That would make for a very boring game - you could not even play the historical battle to a draw - so I can see why they had to fiddle with history to get it into a playable state.

Will have a go at Formigny as the French later today and let you know how I found it. Thanks so muh for the HYW scenarios - I used to be really keen on this period when I was a teenager (I must have read Seward's Hundred Years War half a dozen times!). But I never war gamed the period, so coming back to it now, years later, is proving to be a revelation. Thanks! Tony

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Post by stockwellpete » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:16 am

Tony, if you want to play-test any of these 100YW scenarios with me then you would be very welcome. My plan is to work my way through the whole lot in the next few months. There are also spin-off conflicts in Spain/Portugal, Brittany and Flanders.

I hope that it is doesn't sound too pretentious to talk about "the creative process" but what seems to work best for me is to initially create a scenario with as much "hard information" as possible and then put it on the forum right away for play-testing - I appreciate the term "hard information" can be a problem too because often what is presented as history is actually hagiography, but by cross referencing different sources you can often get a reasonable idea of the forces involved in a battle. And then with the play-testing I find that I am getting lots of interesting feedback, either during the games or by PM and the forum - there are a lot of very knowledgeable people on the board - and as a result of this feedback scenarios can develop quite rapidly to incorporate new elements. The key for me is to always to try and create dilemmas for the commanders so they cannot stay in a "comfort zone" for the whole battle. At Formigny the English have to decide whether to sit on the hill and hope to survive being attacked from both sides, or can they find a way to defeat one half of the French army before having to engage the other half.
Last edited by stockwellpete on Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by pantherboy » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:14 pm

Just want to say I loved this scenario. I played it with pete as a paired game and thoroughly enjoyed playing both sides. Both sides have a number of options on how to approach the battle thus making for a thrilling match. Besides replacing the redundant peasant levy with maybe another archer I feel this scenario is well balanced. Great job Pete.

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Post by stockwellpete » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:47 pm

Thanks very much, Steve. I have added a spear and an archer BG to the French - and I have removed the French peasant levies and downgraded the armour of all their spearmen.

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Post by stockwellpete » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:48 pm

Updated to final version.

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