LORDS OF HISTORY 6: a century of pikes

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LordNytram
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Re: LORDS OF HISTORY 6: a century of pikes

Post by LordNytram » Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:20 am

Nancy
Batesmotel (Burgundians) 32/42 defeats LordNytram (Allies) 48/48

Batesmotel 10.0
LordNytram 7.6

iandavidsmith
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Re: LORDS OF HISTORY 6: a century of pikes

Post by iandavidsmith » Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:56 am

Moncontour

IDS (Huguenots) 55/75 - (7.3) defeats
Jonathan (Royalists) 90/78 - (1.1)

Thanks for the game ,Ian

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Re: LORDS OF HISTORY 6: a century of pikes

Post by LordNytram » Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:17 pm

Moncontour

LordNytram (Huguenots) 56/75 defeats batesmotel (Royalists) 78/78

Lord Nytram 10.0
batesmotel 7.5

Jonathan4290
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Re: LORDS OF HISTORY 6: a century of pikes

Post by Jonathan4290 » Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:11 am

Flodden

Jonathan4290 (Scots) 38/52 defeats Batesmotel (English) 72/72

Jonathan4290: 10.0
Batesmotel: 7.3
Check out my website, The Art of Battle: Animated Battle Maps, where I recreate the greatest battles and campaigns of history: http://www.theartofbattle.com

fogman
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Re: LORDS OF HISTORY 6: a century of pikes

Post by fogman » Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:19 pm

Ravenna 1512

Spanish (fogman) 100/105 vs French (iandavidsmith) 90/90
fogman 10
iandavidsmith 9.5

the Spanish managed to extract most their left wing cavalry from the initial charge and they played a vital role in holding off the French in the last ditch stand.

Londo
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Re: LORDS OF HISTORY 6: a century of pikes

Post by Londo » Sat Apr 23, 2016 6:20 am

Marignano

Batesmotel (Swiss) 24/50 - Londo (French) 75/85

Batesmotel 8.8
Londo 4.8

As French, I rearranged the defensive position, taking the gendarmes and stationing them on the flanks of the artillery alongside the superior landsknecht pikes. The halberdiers I stationed on or behind the broken ground in the centre, hoping that this terrain would advantage them versus pikes.

The Swiss advanced across the board, but on their right flank, they turned around after a few turns, and crossed the river to support the battle in the centre. I don't know whether the movements of the Swiss right were a deliberate feint, or whether Chris just changed his mind. Either way, it was very irritating! :evil: :wink:

The French left marched all the way around to the centre, and appeared just in time to help stabilise the position. By that stage the artillery had been overrun, and the flank positions of gendarmes and landsknechts had been soundly defeated. The Venetians turned up just as the battle was over - typical Italians! :wink:

I wonder whether the "accessory counters" on the Swiss right could be made less superhuman, to allow the French to attack them if the Swiss choose not to fight on that front. Having said that, in my other game, Ian (as French) disrupted one of those counters with crossbow fire, then destroyed it and rolled up the other two from behind - all before the Swiss foot got there! I suspect he was a bit lucky!

Anyway, thanks for creating this scenario, fogman - it's quite unusual and it really made me think!

fogman
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Re: LORDS OF HISTORY 6: a century of pikes

Post by fogman » Sat Apr 23, 2016 4:10 pm

i'm curious to see what the battlefield look like at the end; if you could post an image, that would be great.

i have never seen a swiss player not attacking on his right; there are, i think, easy pickings there. the accessory counters there have the purpose of containing the french until the swiss arrive; being mf, they can easily surround the slower swiss and that's just not historical. I have seen those counters defeated though and that should force the swiss player to get there before the mass of french mf break out. The issue is that in that era, nobody attacked the swiss. They all dug in and waited for the swiss to come at them, so allowing the french to roam free is a non starter.

the scenario was designed to allow the french gendarmes to inflict quite a bit a casualties on the swiss and the french can only win if they do.

it's really a head on collision like all battles involving the swiss but the simulation can be made compelling nonetheless. I actually enjoy these grinding battles more than the high maneuverability battles that the game permits (but that the primitive command and control would not allow in reality); it takes good skills to manage the p.o.a and know when to withdraw mauled units from the front line and when to counter attack. and it's just so much more realistic.

i always enjoy doing situational scenarios. that makes each of them unique. too often scenarios are just two lines of interchangeable units from different eras on interchangeable map and are no more than glorified dag games.

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Re: LORDS OF HISTORY 6: a century of pikes

Post by fogman » Sat Apr 23, 2016 4:35 pm

from what i can gather, there are 4 games outstanding

nancy:
iandavidsmith vs batesmotel

marignano:
lordnytram vs iandavidsmith
iandavidsmith vs londo
batesmotel vs jonathan

-------------------------------------

looking ahead,

with the new version's release as shrouded in mystery as ever, and with me needing to always have games going (posting random games on the board just doesn't get you the right player!), waiting in the wing, for anyone in the same boat, is

the venerable lords of italy 280bc, (the first edition was 3 years ago http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 95&t=41656), but now using the updated situational scenarios, http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 92&t=63392

Jonathan4290
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Re: LORDS OF HISTORY 6: a century of pikes

Post by Jonathan4290 » Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:46 pm

Marignano

Jonathan4290 (Swiss) 24/50 defeats Batesmotel (French) 87/85

Jonathan4290: 10.2
Batesmotel: 4.8

I agree with Fogman that the new version is definitely not imminent and will be running a triple life tournament some time soon. Look out for it if interested.
Check out my website, The Art of Battle: Animated Battle Maps, where I recreate the greatest battles and campaigns of history: http://www.theartofbattle.com

iandavidsmith
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Re: LORDS OF HISTORY 6: a century of pikes

Post by iandavidsmith » Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:04 am

All my remaining games are well advanced with a standoff in Nancy each side of the river and
pikes slugging it out in Marignano.
Ian


fogman wrote:from what i can gather, there are 4 games outstanding

nancy:
iandavidsmith vs batesmotel

marignano:
lordnytram vs iandavidsmith
iandavidsmith vs londo
batesmotel vs jonathan

-------------------------------------

looking ahead,

with the new version's release as shrouded in mystery as ever, and with me needing to always have games going (posting random games on the board just doesn't get you the right player!), waiting in the wing, for anyone in the same boat, is

the venerable lords of italy 280bc, (the first edition was 3 years ago http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 95&t=41656), but now using the updated situational scenarios, http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 92&t=63392

LordNytram
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Re: LORDS OF HISTORY 6: a century of pikes

Post by LordNytram » Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:59 pm

Marignano
iandavidsmith 44/50 defeats LordNytram 87/85
iandavidsmith 10.2
LordNytram 8.8

I think that is my last game in this series. Thanks to all my opponents for a set of great games. If there are any challenges I've missed please PM me.

Londo
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Re: LORDS OF HISTORY 6: a century of pikes

Post by Londo » Mon May 02, 2016 2:43 am

i'm curious to see what the battlefield look like at the end; if you could post an image, that would be great.
This is the situation at the end. The Swiss are well past the artillery, and are now engaged with the last line of immobile landsknechts. Francois is valiantly leading the defence in the centre, personally fighting the Swiss Cardinal's unit.
Attachments
Marig1.JPG
Marig1.JPG (178.24 KiB) Viewed 3935 times

Londo
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Re: LORDS OF HISTORY 6: a century of pikes

Post by Londo » Mon May 02, 2016 3:03 am

A bit further to the right, the Venetians have arrived, just too late to actually do anything. At the very bottom of the screen is Duke Charles, with several MF following him.

Early on, I sent three MF marching round to the centre (at the end, one is engaged, one is coming up, and the other has been routed). The rest, along with Charles, waited for the Swiss attack on the left that never materialised. When it was clear they weren't coming, Charles and the remaining MF marched around to the right, but didn't get there in time. (Sneaky Swiss bastards!) :twisted:
Attachments
Marig2.JPG
Marig2.JPG (137.79 KiB) Viewed 3935 times

Londo
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Re: LORDS OF HISTORY 6: a century of pikes

Post by Londo » Mon May 02, 2016 3:29 am

And now for a Marignano result in which the Swiss fought honourably, unlike the previous battle. :P

Londo (Swiss) 18/50 - Ian (French) 90/85
Londo 10.6
Ian 3.6

I was careful to rotate Swiss units out of the line that had taken > 25% casualties. Against the artillery, the Swiss halberdiers went in ahead of the pikes, and they did well on the broken ground. (Does that represent field defences in front of the guns?) The gendarmes had no luck until the last few turns.

This scenario is a bit harsh on the French, methinks.

Londo
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Re: LORDS OF HISTORY 6: a century of pikes

Post by Londo » Mon May 02, 2016 4:15 am

I actually enjoy these grinding battles more than the high maneuverability battles that the game permits (but that the primitive command and control would not allow in reality); it takes good skills to manage the p.o.a and know when to withdraw mauled units from the front line and when to counter attack. and it's just so much more realistic.
I visualise the high maneuverability battles as local officers seizing the opportunities that present themselves, rather than the C-in-C directing everything. So superior reiters, for example, having the professional skill to trot around the flanks of less mobile units and shoot them up from the sides. When I move the reiters, I think of myself as slipping down for a moment to the saddle of the colonel.

Thanks for another great campaign! I'd be very happy for another Lords to start up some time soon. Playing FOG has become part of my morning ritual: wake up, get out of bed, make a cup of coffee with my plunger, and play some FOG while drinking that coffee. Casual DAG games will suffice if there's nothing else going, but a Fogman campaign is much preferable! :)

iandavidsmith
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Re: LORDS OF HISTORY 6: a century of pikes

Post by iandavidsmith » Mon May 02, 2016 6:30 am

Final Battle completed

Nancy 1477

Batesmotel ( Allies ) 38/48 draw IDS ( Burgundians ) 40/42

Batesmotel : 9.5 pts

IDS : 7.9 pts

Thanks for the game and thanks to Fogman for another excellent Lords Tournament.
Looking forward to the next one.

Ian

fogman
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Re: LORDS OF HISTORY 6: a century of pikes

Post by fogman » Tue May 03, 2016 1:31 am

Londo wrote: I visualise the high maneuverability battles as local officers seizing the opportunities that present themselves, rather than the C-in-C directing everything. So superior reiters, for example, having the professional skill to trot around the flanks of less mobile units and shoot them up from the sides. When I move the reiters, I think of myself as slipping down for a moment to the saddle of the colonel.
This kind of capability (local initiative taken by junior officers in the heat of battle, as opposed to pre-planned) is extremely rare in reality as no colonel would have the top down view through the confusion of battle! I can only think of one example in ancient warfare when a centurion led a cohort out of the roman battle array to outflank the macedonian phalanx at pydna in 168 BC. it was so remarkable that it was duly noted. And none whatsoever in medieval history. This probably became more frequent as mass armies developed and with them the creation and professionalization of an officer corps to lead them.

Marignano is hard on the french because the routed swiss have time to rally (and being superior and elite they have a good chance) and simply because the french have less room for error (the proper handling of the elite gendarmerie is absolutely crucial). this a case where defending is more complex than attacking, usually it is the opposite. But i'll have a look to see what can be tweaked.

and yes the broken ground in front of the french batteries are defensive works.

jonathan is running a tournament and i don't know if the usual suspects can make time for double duty so we'll see when the next lords (lords of italy 280) can be run. I'll ask around sometimes.

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Re: LORDS OF HISTORY 6: a century of pikes

Post by Londo » Tue May 03, 2016 7:37 pm

the proper handling of the elite gendarmerie is absolutely crucial
What is the best handling of them?

Ian used the gendarmerie rather sparingly, attacking only across the rough field spaces, on which they had a better chance than in the open. But though they won some combats, the gendarmes couldn't get a disrupt on the pikes until towards the end, so they kept having to break off.

I tried putting them in the vicinity of superior landsknechts, hoping that the landsknechts would sometimes get a disrupt which the gendarmes could exploit. But that didn't work either!

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Re: LORDS OF HISTORY 6: a century of pikes

Post by fogman » Sat May 07, 2016 2:44 pm

Londo wrote:
the proper handling of the elite gendarmerie is absolutely crucial
What is the best handling of them?

Ian used the gendarmerie rather sparingly, attacking only across the rough field spaces, on which they had a better chance than in the open. But though they won some combats, the gendarmes couldn't get a disrupt on the pikes until towards the end, so they kept having to break off.

I tried putting them in the vicinity of superior landsknechts, hoping that the landsknechts would sometimes get a disrupt which the gendarmes could exploit. But that didn't work either!
i launch the gendarmes at the swiss flank from the beginning, they are slightly disadvantaged on impact (through of the fields) but are advantaged on melees. their elite status will usually allow them to not lose cohesion. if the fight looks promising it is important to block their retreat paths so they don't pull back prematurely. similarly care must be taken to give them a retreat path if they are in trouble or running high on casualties. the attack can be deadly if the swiss player exposes halberd units on impact in the open. francois' unit and one other commander gendarmes are used to sally out of the main battery and attack enemy infantry as they reach or about to reach the cannon fire markers line (especially if they advance with halberds), as they did historically. beyond that it's a matter of judiciously reacting to swiss moves. if you're careful most of the gendarmes units can be withdrawn safely, most will be around 50% or even less but they should have blunted the swiss assault and attracted swiss reserves. most of the elite swiss pikes are from the reserve and so attacking early before they reach the battle line is important.

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Re: LORDS OF HISTORY 6: a century of pikes

Post by fogman » Sat May 07, 2016 3:51 pm

Final tally for LOH6: a century of pikes.
LOH6a.jpg
LOH6a.jpg (56.52 KiB) Viewed 3832 times
LOH6b.jpg
LOH6b.jpg (20.95 KiB) Viewed 3832 times
LOH6c.jpg
LOH6c.jpg (36.48 KiB) Viewed 3832 times
thanks to all for another well played series. unfortunately it's like at the casino, the house wins :mrgreen:
the lords will return in about two months

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