Battle of Pinkie Cleuch, 1547

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stockwellpete
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Battle of Pinkie Cleuch, 1547

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:57 pm

This is the one with the warships! :D Henry VIII has just died and the Scots have rejected the idea of a marriage between their Queen Mary and the new young King, Edward VI. In response, the Duke of Somerset, the Lord Protector, led an English army across the Scottish border to force the issue . . .

Updated 7th April 2013 . . .

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15461007/Battle ... 20PWv5.zip
Last edited by stockwellpete on Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Scutarii
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Post by Scutarii » Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:14 pm

An interesting scen, VS AI is good playing as English as Scottish... maybe a human use all pike units and evade ships (maybe increase their range and deploy then in a island???) but the AI play slow and give to the human the option to attack or wait, wait is a good option using artillery.

Image

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Post by stockwellpete » Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:54 pm

I am glad you enjoyed it Scutari. I don't use the AI at all now - I usually play-test against myself first to make sure there are no obvious mistakes and then I play with the trusty band of scenario developers on this forum and we make changes as we go along - then I put the game on the forum for everyone to play. From that screenshot it seems that the Scots suffered a terrible catastrophe and that I might have caused the depopulation of Scotland in the process! :oops:

What they think happpened on the day was that the English warships bombarded the highlanders and they quickly routed. The other pikemen on the Scottish left flank moved into the centre and then the whole mass of Scottish pikes marched towards the English line. They were stopped by repeated cavalry charges and then shot to pieces by cannon, arquebus and bow. As their formation started to break up, the English cavalry charged again and caused dreadful casualties.

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Post by tyrkir » Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:06 pm

Nice scenario but the range of the "ships" make them quite ineffective. I played the English versus the AI and only the first two "ships" were able to bombard the scottish cannon while the highlanders remained out of range.

Besides, there's a kind of ridge which prevents the ships from shooting any highlander that would wander closer to the coastline.

In my game, I used the English cavalry to get rid of the Scots' poneys and then I wrapped up the Scottish line from left to right while my infantry kept the massive pikemen formations in check. On the other wing, the highlanders were very passive and it took only a few bowmen and arquebuses to keep them busy. Overall, a crishing victory.

But again, a very nice scenario with plenty of troops and nice terrain features (not to mention the ships...)

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Post by stockwellpete » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:36 pm

tyrkir wrote:Nice scenario but the range of the "ships" make them quite ineffective. I played the English versus the AI and only the first two "ships" were able to bombard the scottish cannon while the highlanders remained out of range.

Besides, there's a kind of ridge which prevents the ships from shooting any highlander that would wander closer to the coastline.

In my game, I used the English cavalry to get rid of the Scots' poneys and then I wrapped up the Scottish line from left to right while my infantry kept the massive pikemen formations in check. On the other wing, the highlanders were very passive and it took only a few bowmen and arquebuses to keep them busy. Overall, a crishing victory.

But again, a very nice scenario with plenty of troops and nice terrain features (not to mention the ships...)
Well, I have already played games where every ship has fired in a single turn. The "ridge" is, in fact, earthworks erected by the Scots to protect them from fire from the warships, but this only protects them in their starting positions really. In the real battle, most of the highlanders were routed by the fire from the warships (which I haven't been able to replicate too well, although individual highlander units do get routed by the ship's cannons) and the rest of the pikes on that flank were pushed into the middle of the battlefield. The Scots formation became one great big mass trying to make its way through the "mire". The pikes beat off repeated English cavalry attacks, but were eventually shot to pieces by archers, arquebusiers and artillery fire. The cavalry then killed many of the fleeing Scots.

I think you need to play against another player to get the full effect of the game. The AI is extremely weak. I am quite happy to give you a "paired game" if you are interested in the scenario.

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Post by maximvs » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:15 pm

In all FOG games the AI does tend to advance slowly and carefully, keeping most units in a line where possible. This is not always the best way to fight to win a battle, so the scenario may well play quite differently against a live opponent.
This also makes it difficult for a designer to make the game balanced for both single and multiplayer.
I've played this a couple of times and the Scots have won both times in MP

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Post by stockwellpete » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:47 pm

maximvs wrote:I've played this a couple of times and the Scots have won both times in MP
And they are clearly winning in our third game as well, aren't they, Max?. :oops: So I think the balance will need to be tipped towards the English a bit more. Basically I try to balance these scenarios 2:1 in favour of the historical victor. So I think I will make all English bill and archer units "average", instead of around 25% of them being "poor" at the moment. Also, the mounted handgunner mercenaries under de Gamboa, and the German mercenary foot handgunners can now be "elite"; and the Scottish horse (badly mauled the day before the battle) can be designated as "light horse" - they were in no real state to confront the English cavalry again. Hopefully that will bring the game nearer to the 2:1 balance I am aiming for.

And in response to Tyrkir's commens about the range of the "ships", I have redrawn the coastline ever so slightly which brings somes of the ships one hex nearer to the action.

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Post by maximvs » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:42 pm

I think Pete will keep adding more units until the English can't possibly lose :lol:

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Post by stockwellpete » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:45 pm

maximvs wrote:I think Pete will keep adding more units until the English can't possibly lose :lol:
If you keep beating me I am going to put a ruddy great lake right in the middle of the map and fill it with warships! :lol:

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Post by tyrkir » Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:58 am

Hi Pete. Thanks for your "human confrontation" offer (it's true the AI is not much of a challenge, rather a punching ball). These days are a bit hectic on my side but I'd be happy to give it a try

How could we proceed?

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Post by stockwellpete » Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:02 pm

tyrkir wrote:Hi Pete. Thanks for your "human confrontation" offer (it's true the AI is not much of a challenge, rather a punching ball). These days are a bit hectic on my side but I'd be happy to give it a try

How could we proceed?
OK - I will put a paired challenge on for us now (that is, 2 games, each of us taking a turn at English and Scots) and the password will be "tyrkir".

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Post by stockwellpete » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:13 am

After intense lobbying from Frank :lol: , I have introduced a couple of provisional changes - German mercenary handgunners will now be "superior" apart from the "Mewtas" unit that will remain "elite". The highlanders will now be "average". These means all the units have their "proper" values now, I think. Hopefully it will still give a balanced game. If it does then I will put an updated version of the scenario on here.

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Post by stockwellpete » Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:27 am

Updated to version 3.

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Post by stockwellpete » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:31 am

Just a few minor changes have been made (latest version in first post).

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Re: Battle of Pinkie Cleuch, 1547

Post by stockwellpete » Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:18 pm

I have managed to bring the English warships closer in to the shoreline so that they can possibly get more shots in during the game.

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Re: Battle of Pinkie Cleuch, 1547

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:28 pm

Updated to version 5 (see first post in thread).

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