AK: Gazala Line

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VPaulus
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AK: Gazala Line

Post by VPaulus » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:42 pm

Please post here your comments about this scenario.

Razz1
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Re: AK: Gazala Line

Post by Razz1 » Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:40 am

A fun scenario on Colonel.
It was good to push forward as in the early war.

DV here.

Tried to push as far East as I could.

RAF hassles you allot and takes out strength points.

monkspider
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Re: AK: Gazala Line

Post by monkspider » Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:27 am

Gazala Line
Ending prestige 6400
DV on turn 32/32

Now we're talking! This is an long, epic, and somewhat exhausting scenario, but it is also the most unique and memorable of the campaign that I have played thus far. It is an incredibly difficult scenario, and one that was a daunting challenge right up to the very last turn. Despite being a great experience, it was also a very flawed masterpiece that had several significant issues that need to be addressed.

The primary flaws are thus:
1. The minefields are a cool addition to the game but they are bit too much of a pain in the ass to clear out. I would recommend dropping their strength to 5 so that they don't take such an investment of time and energy to clear.
2. The victory conditions are flawed, it is asking a LOT for players to capture all of the objectives just to get even a marginal victory. I also never liked battles that required you to kill a certain number of units since there is no way to keep track of how close you are to victory. I would drop the units killed requirement completely, at least for the marginal victory if nothing else. I would also recommend allowing players to miss an objective or two and still get a marginal.
3. Tobruk fell way too easily, I would like to see more enemy units up here, maybe some elite Australian troops. On the other hand, the airfield in the southwest is too far out of the way and requires you to divert too many units to hold it. I would drop the victory hex status from it and move those units that were down there to the Tobruk area.

It was a great scenario though, despite these flaws, and if these can fixed, I think it could be elevated to the A-tier list of scenarios. My strategy was to send my Panzer divison around Bir Hacheim and toward Tobruk while my Italian Infantry division would attack Bir Hacheim and then help roll up the enemy flanks. Overall, things generally went well and I even got my first captured unit of the campaign, a Grant tank.

Hopefully the campaign will see more scenarios of this caliber, and I hope that the earlier scenarios can be patched up to this level of quality as well.

-Edit I received a couple pop up messages in this one, all of which seemed to have pretty poor English. I am not sure why the quality of writing on the pop ups seems to be so far below that of the briefings, but they need a lot of work.

-Edit 2, I also received a message saying that I earned a special 4000 point prestige award. I am not exactly sure what triggered it, but it was of course quite handy to have.
Last edited by monkspider on Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Razz1
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Re: AK: Gazala Line

Post by Razz1 » Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:47 am

No problem with mines here.

Just bypass them like forts.

monkspider
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Re: AK: Gazala Line

Post by monkspider » Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:05 am

I tried to bypass them as much as possible, but when I was assaulting Bir Hacheim, I found it impossible to carry out my offensive without clearing out quite a few of them.

produit
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Re: AK: Gazala Line

Post by produit » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:27 pm

FM, possible DV on 20/32, but waited for prestige.

Cleared the whole map, not talking about the mines. Splendid scenario. It was really interesting. Having to clear the whole defenses takes a lot of planning, but is enjoyable. Having moved most of my unit through the south gap, taking the airfield near Bir el Gubi was really easy. I also achieved a breakthrough on the north quite fast. But assaulting UK defense with the Italian took a lot of time.

A strange thing is the mines. They have a spotting of one, and thus, some of my units did seem to be spotted by the mines. Would it not be better to give a spotting of 0 for the mines ?

Pioneers destroy mines really fast, but still endure some losses. Is it normal ? They are in the end really needed for this map.

produit
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Re: AK: Gazala Line

Post by produit » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:48 pm

Having to wait 12 turns for prestige at the end is awful.
Moreover, when the AI has no unit anymore, it takes a lot of time to play.

uran21
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Re: AK: Gazala Line

Post by uran21 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:08 pm

This is how minefield work. Scenario designers should pay attention to assign them Hold position(passive) AI behaviour otherwise they will shoot back!
Minefields do not exercise ZOC so you if they are lined up, destroying only one of them will force a breach where other units can travel. When you deal with minefields focus on what you want to achieve. There are two new unit traits related to combat with minefields; minesweeper and minekiller. Minesweeper will kill mine in one single shoot. Characteristics of combat engineers. Minekiller will use his attack stats to reduce minefields strength. Those are infantry and artillery (capital ships included). Other units will reduce minefields with rate of 1 strength per attack. All units lose 1 strength per attack when interacting with minefields.

P.S. Sorry for my bad English. When pop-up messages are in place and everything running they are going to be edited.

Rudankort
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Re: AK: Gazala Line

Post by Rudankort » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:46 pm

uran21 wrote:This is how minefield work. Scenario designers should pay attention to assign them Hold position(passive) AI behaviour otherwise they will shoot back!
This will be fixed. :)

Mountaineer
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Re: AK: Gazala Line

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:33 am

I like the pop up mission to defend the airfield. It is things like this which make it interesting.

Reading other posts on minefields I have something to add. When mines are discovered and/or cleared they are marked. Units should not be surprised to discover a minefield another units has already seen. Friendly units should know their own marking system. Therefore I propose that mines do not disappear when you move away from them, nor should they have a ZOC, which stops a passing unit once the minefieldd is discovered.

Blathergut
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Re: AK: Gazala Line

Post by Blathergut » Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:30 am

Odd thing happened:

A motorcycle unit moved adjacent to mines. Another went to move past it but hit another minefield as it entered the first unit's hex, stopped, and one of my units disappeared.

Razz1
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Re: AK: Gazala Line

Post by Razz1 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:26 am

The conditions you describe can not happen as you stated as, a unit in a hex reveals all surrounding units, including mines. I believe you must be mistaken, however, if I am wrong perhaps one of these things occurred.

You could have been destroyed by an ambush from the mine.

You are still alive, after you move the first motorcycle unit, the next unit may appear on the following turn.

LostAgain
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Re: AK: Gazala Line

Post by LostAgain » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:20 am

Playing FM.
THIS is what I've been hoping for. You guys have hit your stride now. A very challenging scenario. In the earlier scenarios I was actually disbanding some or all of the auxiliary units, but that is NOT an option here.

Land mines...what a [unpleasant] cool surprise. I noticed a comment suggesting going around the landmines, but there was no way to do that that I could find, as that was my first thought when I came upon them initially. No complaints though, that's EXACTLY how they were used. There was a comment stating that following units should not be surprised when a field is already discovered. This pre-supposes that all units are in contact with each other. In fact, I've read many accounts about both sides laying these giant fields without marking them at all, or marking them inadequately and in later battles falling victim to their own mines! With that in mind, I think that only units in direct contact with another would have any chance of knowing about a discovered field, and once through it I don't think they'd be giving a lot of thought to saving a diagram of the layout.

I was pleasantly surprised to receive an SE Bf 110! SE bombers, alright!!! To top it all off you lured me into a false sense of security where my aircraft were concerned because of the limited air defenses so far, but I was IMMEDIATELY disabused of that particular pipe dream by the well-integrated in-depth air defenses in this scenario! I actually had an SM 79 destroyed on the very first move because of the previously noted hubris/naivety on my part. Cruel, cruel wake up call.

I have a small problem with the victory conditions. With the fog of war the possibility of not finding sufficient units for a DV is a possibility isn’t it? Didn’t happen to me, but I thought I’d put it out there.

Last but not least, a question. Was the 4000 Prestige bonus I received for taking the last victory point? I’m assuming so as it popped up right after I got there, (on the very last turn by the way).

uran21
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Re: AK: Gazala Line

Post by uran21 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:41 am

Was the 4000 Prestige bonus I received for taking the last victory point? I’m assuming so as it popped up right after I got there, (on the very last turn by the way).
It is related to that airfield that pops up as an objective during scenario. If you do not capture the airfield you have a chance for Decisive but no chance for reward.
If you capture the airfield it will be counter attacked and it will become condition for decisive victory. Defending it will result in a reward.

Blathergut
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Re: AK: Gazala Line

Post by Blathergut » Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:34 pm

Razz1 wrote:The conditions you describe can not happen as you stated as, a unit in a hex reveals all surrounding units, including mines. I believe you must be mistaken, however, if I am wrong perhaps one of these things occurred.

You could have been destroyed by an ambush from the mine.

You are still alive, after you move the first motorcycle unit, the next unit may appear on the following turn.
The turn began with 2 motorcycle units, strengths 7 and 8. The first one moved and was ambushed (loss of 1 point). Now I am fairly sure when the second one moved the other mines were not revealed by the first unit. The mines adjacent are revealed when? After I deselect the unit/unit ends turn? The first would have had movement left and I immediately selected the 2nd unit. Could that have had some effect?

Anyway, the 2nd unit moved and died in a blink. The unit left now shows 5 strength, no ammo, and my core shows 1 unit now available for placement since one just died.

I have the turn at start and the turn after saved, if you are interested.

Blathergut
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Re: AK: Gazala Line

Post by Blathergut » Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:42 pm

Plus, one unit had 2 shots left at the start of the move/turn. It's the one now showing no ammo. So it's like it attacked/defended twice during my move.

Plus: I had one dead from core before they moved. So a motorcycle unit is gone and core placement number didn't change.

Blathergut
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Re: AK: Gazala Line

Post by Blathergut » Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:47 pm

I haven't been able to recreate the mines not showing. If I move the first unit one hex, which has no mines, the adjacent mines are not revealed until I select my other motorcycle unit.

Weird. Ah well...if it's not repeatable I suppose it's not something you should be concerned with!

uran21
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Re: AK: Gazala Line

Post by uran21 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:57 pm

Bugs can be weird at times. To be fixed it needs to have pattern that can be recreated. We should watch for if this case pops up again.

bulli
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Re: AK: Gazala Line

Post by bulli » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:55 pm

At the end of allied turn 13 i alwas get this one:

Runtime error!

Program: D:\...

This application has requested the Runtime to terminate it in an unusual way.
Please contact the application's support team for more information.

?

Rudankort
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Re: AK: Gazala Line

Post by Rudankort » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:57 pm

bulli wrote:At the end of allied turn 13 i alwas get this one:

Runtime error!

Program: D:\...

This application has requested the Runtime to terminate it in an unusual way.
Please contact the application's support team for more information.

?
Is it end of your turn, or AI turn? Can you send me (rudankort@rsdn.ru) a saved game before this happens?

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