Swedish cavalry help?

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marty
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Swedish cavalry help?

Post by marty » Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:59 pm

I have been given a painted Swedish army and am having trouble identifying the cavalry regiments (and in some cases type). I have:

1) Bicorne with tall white plume, blue uniform with yellow facings
2) Curassiers, Black helmet white crest, brown/tan uniform. No clear facings
3) Curassiers, black helmet black crest, brown uniforms, no clear facings
4) Curassiers, hat folded up on one side with white plume on side, white uniform, no clear facings
5) Helmet with both plume sticking up on front and flowing down back of helmet, blue uniform, red facings
6) Peakless shako with white plume on side, pale blue uniform and yellow facings

Seems like a lot of cuirassiers to me (the list allows one unit, the lifeguard). All the units I have identified as such have their torsos a different colour to their arms so I assume they are cuirassiers? Does any knowledgeable person out there have any idea what regiments (and in some cases type) of cavalry I'm looking at.

Martin

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Re: Swedish cavalry help?

Post by marty » Fri May 01, 2015 1:50 am

With a bit of digging I have worked out that the guys in Bicorne are probably carabiniers and unit 6 (peakless shako) are most likely light dragoons, although I still have no idea of regiment for either. I suspect the curassiers in the hat are the life guard curassiers but have read conflicting thoughts on that. I think unit 5 may be dragoons. If anyone can confirm/deny add further detail I would be most appreciative.

Once rebased time to work out if an army that is a mix of poor and average guard cuts the mustard!?

Martin

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Re: Swedish cavalry help?

Post by pugsville » Fri May 01, 2015 7:02 am


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Re: Swedish cavalry help?

Post by shadowdragon » Fri May 01, 2015 2:33 pm

Here are some online references which list the regiments:

http://www.hat.com/Othr7/Berg02P.html

http://pancerni-fishtales.blogspot.ca/2 ... -1814.html

http://s112.photobucket.com/user/camcle ... t=6&page=1

I also have the Osprey Scandinavian armies book and the recently updated Rawkins book. The regiments are:

1) Skanska karabinjarregementes (Skanska Carabiniers - a heavy cavalry regiment. This would be the poor heavy cavalry in the lists. Note that Rawkins says the Skanska carabiniers switched to kiwer shakos in 1812.)
2) Lifregementetbrigadens kyrassiercorps (Life Guard Cuirassier regiment. The guard cuirassier unit in the lists. I assume by "tan" you mean a light tan or buff.)
3) I have no reference that mentions a Swedish cavalry unit with brown uniforms. There was only one cuirassier regiments, the Life Guard Cuirassiers.
4) Lifgardet til hast (Royal Horse Guards. They shouldn't have a cuirass. They are in the lists as guard heavy cavalry but should be guard light cavalry. Prior to 1805 they were the light Life Dragoons - Latta lifdragonregementet - and in 1814 they wore a Russian style hussar uniform. The white uniform was their parade dress uniform but their campaign uniform, except for officers, was light blue.
5) Vestgota dragonregementes (West Gotta light dragoons)
6) Either the Smalands dragonregementes (Smalands light dragoons). Note they were supposed to have switched to a dark blue coat in 1807 but Rawkins believes that the light blue coat was in use by some squadrons until the end of the wars.

There were 6 dragoon regiments in 1805, the Life Guard Dragoons which became the Lifgardet til hast regiment, the Skanska Carabiniers, the Vestgota (light) dragoons, the Smalands (light) dragoons and two Finnish regiments (Karelska and Nylands). The two Finnish regiments were disbanded after Sweden lost Finland to Russia in 1809. The Vestgota were dismounted in 1809 and became the Vestgota infantry regiment. The Smalands were reduced by half in 1812 with half being dismounted and becoming the Smalands infantry battalion. The reference linked above to the Courier articles says the Norra Skanska dragoons were converted to hussars (i.e., the Skanska hussars) in 1805 but Rawkins says he can't confirm that this conversion took place until after 1814.

In addition to these there were the Mornerska hussars and the Life Guard hussars, the latter included with the Life Horse Guards, as mentioned above, should be a Guard light cavalry unit in the lists instead of the Guard heavy cavalry. The hussars are in the list.

As noted by Rawkins, "Probably because of the convoluted history of the Swedish cavalry regiments being disbanded and re-raised and the large number of uniform regulation changes that took place during the reign of the obsessive King Gustavus Adolphus each of the cavalry units had items of uniform that were unique and peculiar to them alone and none more so than the dragoon regiments."

Also, "In 1791 the senior indelta cavalry regiment the Lifregementet til hast had it’s twelve squadrons split into three units, two cavalry and one infantry. After several aborted attempts at re-organisation the units were finally established in 1805 as the Lifregementsbrigadens kyrassiercorps, Lifregementsbrigadens husarcorps, (Hussar Corps of the Life Regiment Brigade) and an infantry regiment the Lifregementsbrigadens grenadiercorps. The cuirassier and hussar regiments formed the cavalry element of the Lifregementetbrigaden, (Life Regiments Brigade) and were the senior horse regiments in the army." The light Horse Guards above were a varvade (reserve) and not an indelta regiment.

I hope that helps you out.
Last edited by shadowdragon on Fri May 01, 2015 2:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.

marty
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Re: Swedish cavalry help?

Post by marty » Fri May 01, 2015 2:38 pm

Thanks Pugsville and Shadowdragon. All the information I could hope for.

Martin

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Re: Swedish cavalry help?

Post by shadowdragon » Fri May 01, 2015 2:55 pm

And here's more... :D

Establishment squadrons and strengths (according to Rawkins):

Lifregementetbrigadens kyrassiercorps: 4 squadrons (500)
Lifregementetbrigadens husarcorps: 8 squadrons (500)
Vestgota dragonregementes (converted to an infantry regiment): 8 squadrons (1000)
Smalands dragonregementes (half converted to an infantry battalion): 8 squadrons (600)
Skanska dragonregementes (Skanska husarregementet from 1807): 8 squadrons (1000)
Skanska karabinjarregementes: 8 squadrons (1000)
Jemptlands hastjagaresqvadron (Dismounted): 1 squadron (100)
Lifgardet til hast (formerly Latta lifdragonregementet 1802-1805): 6 squadrons (420)
Mornerska husarregementet: 8 squadrons (1000)
Karelska dragoncorpsen (Finnish): 2 squadrons (200)
Nylands dragonregementes (Finnish): 8 squadrons (550)

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Re: Swedish cavalry help?

Post by shadowdragon » Fri May 01, 2015 3:18 pm

I highly recommend the Rawkins book (on CD):

http://www.thehistorybookman.webeden.co.uk/

...and when in doubt I've used this to trace the history of individual regiments:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swedish_regiments

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Re: Swedish cavalry help?

Post by shadowdragon » Fri May 01, 2015 4:12 pm

My own Swedish corps...slowly progressing:

Image

In the front, the Lifgardet til hast (Royal Horse Guards), with one base painted up as the jager squadron (green coats), life grenadiers, and the Life Cuirassiers.

A couple of other views here:

http://s174.photobucket.com/user/starry ... t=3&page=1

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Re: Swedish cavalry help?

Post by marty » Fri May 01, 2015 11:45 pm

They look great. Thanks for all the help

Martin

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Re: Swedish cavalry help?

Post by Amra » Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:53 am

Hiya ,
I'm doing this army with a Brunswick division .
I'm thinking of War Modeler (The Spanish company) figs
What figs did you use for the Life Guards (could I use French carabiners ? ) .
Any idea what to use for Life Guard Dragoons ? I'm not sure who they are , would it be the Livgardet till häst – the Horse Guards ?
Cheers

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Re: Swedish cavalry help?

Post by shadowdragon » Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:27 pm

Amra wrote:Hiya ,
I'm doing this army with a Brunswick division .
I'm thinking of War Modeler (The Spanish company) figs
What figs did you use for the Life Guards (could I use French carabiners ? ) .
Any idea what to use for Life Guard Dragoons ? I'm not sure who they are , would it be the Livgardet till häst – the Horse Guards ?
Cheers
Miniature figurines do both the Life Guard Cuirassiers and the Livgardet til Hast as do Naismith (Navwar). The latter are termed "Dragoon (early)" by Minifigs. Old Guard also does Life Guard Cuirassiers. Blue Moon is coming out with a line of Swedish troops that will include Life Guard Cuirassiers but not Livgardet till Hast. There may be other manufacturers.

The Livgardet til Hast regiment was called the Life Guard Dragoons until 1806 and should be classified as light, not heavy, cavalry. Not many manufacturers do their uniform with the kask headgear worn from 1806-1813. In 1813 they adopted a uniform very much like the Russian Hussars. So you could always use Russian hussar figures.

Try these links for more information:

http://www.the-ancients.com/gemigabok/s ... 1808-1809/ (check the section on figure reviews)

http://pancerni-fishtales.blogspot.ca/2 ... -1814.html

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Re: Swedish cavalry help?

Post by Amra » Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:58 pm

Thanks ,

These are the figs I saw , they look nice I think ( I don't know why they have done horse artillery rather than foot )

http://shop.capitangames.com/index.php? ... &id_lang=7

I saw your suggestion for errata to make the Life Guard Dragoons light.

That is clearly correct ,but it wasn't acted on was it ?

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Re: Swedish cavalry help?

Post by shadowdragon » Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:05 am

Amra wrote:I saw your suggestion for errata to make the Life Guard Dragoons light.

That is clearly correct ,but it wasn't acted on was it ?
Not that I'm aware. Probably not a priority and it's been some time since any official errata were posted.

FYI - if you want to convert French carabiners into Swedish guard cuirassiers you'd have to extend the helmet comb below the back of the helmet and remove the rear breast plate (the Swedes only had front breast plates).

Or....you could wait for a blue moon's figures. :)

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Re: Swedish cavalry help?

Post by Amra » Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:55 am

True ,but it wouldn't have taken much to make it right grrr

I looked at Blue Moons infantry ,they look good.

I think the Swedes used a Russian cuirassier uniform ( pre-horse hair crest) so again I can use Blue Moon .The hussars were in mirliton and I already have some from my Rev War French

I'm still stuck on the Life Guard Dragoons , do I make them hussar-like and call them heavy or maybe put them in an older uniform ? Swedish cav uniforms in particular seem a movable feast , as the '13-'14 campaign moved on they seem to have switched to more modern Russian uniforms every chance they could to stop all the other kids making fun of them :)

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Re: Swedish cavalry help?

Post by shadowdragon » Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:37 pm

Amra wrote:True ,but it wouldn't have taken much to make it right grrr

I looked at Blue Moons infantry ,they look good.

I think the Swedes used a Russian cuirassier uniform ( pre-horse hair crest) so again I can use Blue Moon .The hussars were in mirliton and I already have some from my Rev War French

I'm still stuck on the Life Guard Dragoons , do I make them hussar-like and call them heavy or maybe put them in an older uniform ? Swedish cav uniforms in particular seem a movable feast , as the '13-'14 campaign moved on they seem to have switched to more modern Russian uniforms every chance they could to stop all the other kids making fun of them :)
No fears, I will remind them again when version 2.0 is at that stage. Even before they were called the Livregementet till häst, they were the Livregementsbrigadens lätta dragonkår (literally the Life Regimental Brigade Light Dragoon Corps), and in 1815 became the Life Regiment Hussar Corps. But, if you play in tournaments and the lists say heavy cavalry that's what you'll need to field them as unless the organizers issue a correction.

If not your options are to use figures from a manufacturer, like Miniature Figurines or Old Glory who makes these figures; convert by using life guard heads on a dragoon figure's body or use Russian hussar figures for a heavy cavalry regiments. In the latter case, if your opponent objects, just say, "that's the rating in the lists and this their uniform in 1814". LOL

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Re: Swedish cavalry help?

Post by marty » Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:19 pm

And looking at it from a purely "gamey" POV having a second unit of guard heavies to accompany your guard cuirrasiers is no bad thing. I tend to run them both in the same division as the guard infantry. It is one section of the line that tends to as difficult questions of the opposition.

What are you taking in your Brunswick division? I have the models but find it quite tricky to fit a division of them I would want in to an 800 point list.

Martin

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Re: Swedish cavalry help?

Post by Amra » Sun Aug 30, 2015 12:28 am

Hi Martin ,

My army has 3 divisions

Div 1 Guard ; Shock HC(officer & arty att), HC ,large Guard inf ( cav & skirmish att) ,Line av , skilled commander
Div 2 2x large Poor Line , Lge Hussars ,med batt, cossacks, competent commander
Div 3 Brunswick lge line (med arty & rifle skirmish), lights ,Hussars/Lancers vet , allied competent commander

Usually defending on a big hill ( 1 on initiative :)). Hill goes down on base edge diagonally at the 24"point from the flank . Div 2 goes on the reverse slope ,guns on hill but limbered . Cossacks out front , Hussars w Div com just ahead of inf . If no one comes to get them , the cav work together and the guns shift to support wherever the attack is coming

Div 3 is extra shooty to support the Guard , usually from the flank

Div 1 Holds the centre , cav set back to switch towards the attack point .No one will just run at Guard HC and a large Guard inf unit, you'll see their attack coming ! :)

What could go wrong ?:) BTW , its bad if he masses his guns against you ;)

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Re: Swedish cavalry help?

Post by Amra » Sun Aug 30, 2015 12:28 am

Hi Martin ,

My army has 3 divisions

Div 1 Guard ; Shock HC(officer & arty att), HC ,large Guard inf ( cav & skirmish att) ,Line av , skilled commander
Div 2 2x large Poor Line , Lge Hussars ,med batt, cossacks, competent commander
Div 3 Brunswick lge line (med arty & rifle skirmish), lights ,Hussars/Lancers vet , allied competent commander

Usually defending on a big hill ( 1 on initiative :)). Hill goes down on base edge diagonally at the 24"point from the flank . Div 2 goes on the reverse slope ,guns on hill but limbered . Cossacks out front , Hussars w Div com just ahead of inf . If no one comes to get them , the cav work together and the guns shift to support wherever the attack is coming

Div 3 is extra shooty to support the Guard , usually from the flank

Div 1 Holds the centre , cav set back to switch towards the attack point .No one will just run at Guard HC and a large Guard inf unit, you'll see their attack coming ! :)

What could go wrong ?:) BTW , its bad if he masses his guns against you ;)

marty
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Re: Swedish cavalry help?

Post by marty » Sun Aug 30, 2015 2:29 am

I could be wrong but I believe the Swedish infantry (except for the Guard) can only be in small units. You cant have the two large poor units you have in your list.

I really like to give the large guard foot unit an artillery attachment (although it is also good on the cav). I'm not sure why you are fielding the Brunswickers (apart from variety and cool uniforms). To my mind what they bring is large units and artillery attachments (up to 3 in one division!). If you don't have enough points to field a couple of large units with a gun attached I think you may as well field more Swedes. This would also let you take another artillery battery. While this list I never going to be an artillery power-house only one battery is going to leave you seriously outgunned.

I think I will only roll out my Brunswickers when I get a chance to use this army in a larger game.

I have found the initiative 0 with this army a bit of a pain. Having said that I seem to do pretty well with it. Guard cav is very forgiving and I find Poor drilled good value for the points.

Martin

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Re: Swedish cavalry help?

Post by Amra » Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:58 am

All good points .

You are right about the large units ( how did I miss that ? ) , so 2 large becomes 3 small. Still great holding a flank on a hill .

The Brunswickers are there because they look cool and deliver a lot of fire .

If I take more Swedes and a gun battery the army becomes a vanilla of not very good , using them without gives them their style . I like each army to be stylistically different and to be used differently .

I'm on the defensive,I will see his guns coming and avoid /deal with them .

I like a transverse road for shifting assets

The Lights in skirmish will negate guns .

Personal choice , but I like to give shock Guard heavies everything because they are going to charge. The infantry may just threaten/fire fight

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