Fantastic game - here's my first impressions

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Dragoon.
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Re: Fantastic game - here's my first impressions

Post by Dragoon. » Tue May 19, 2015 9:28 am

rezaf wrote:Well, in this particular case, it was the player who was retarded - the game does a bad job of informing players about possible staging grounds, but more careful examination of the map should have "solved" this issue.
...
_____
rezaf
Nice of you to call a dev retard. Way to go. https://dontbeadickday.com/
simcc wrote:Take such a long time to read all these lol. First stop rezaf point out a few good point ie paratroopers which happens to be my favorite and expensive yet the got kill because no supply lol. Other points like the US campaign I would not agree with rezaf. Its super fun to play US IMO better than IJ and the key is always correct force deployment which make this game super fun. Deploy the wrong force you get owned lol.

Note: On coral all I did was deploy a small carrier to defend Port and use it to refuel my bombers and honestly naval battle is superb in this game all the hidden rules ie move and fire stationary fire for you and opponent and after sometime you will understand that a cruising destroyer at max speed at easy to hit with a battleship but if it stationary and so are your battleship just look at the effect lol it will knock out that destroyer so fast lol. But still i hate IJN cruisers lol they have torpedoes which can knock out my battleship but my cruisers dont have that ;( so rushing BB with CA for US side aint fun lol.

Never stop moving with your ships, or torpedoes will do extra damage against your ship. Unless you haven't used your attack this round. Then the game will treat your unit as moved, even if you haven't. All you need to do is to move a single hex and than attack. If the overall distance to your target haven't changed, then movement won't affect your accuracy. Exception may be if you have a ship with out range other ships. Like a BB ship versus Destroyer. Then moving backwards will allow you to still do damage while denying it to your enemy.
Last edited by Dragoon. on Tue May 19, 2015 9:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

Erik2
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Re: Fantastic game - here's my first impressions

Post by Erik2 » Tue May 19, 2015 9:31 am

Select the ship and move the cursor around inside the gun range area.
Notice how the combat odds against enemy ships change.
You should find the spot to move to for maximum inflicted damage.

rezaf
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Re: Fantastic game - here's my first impressions

Post by rezaf » Tue May 19, 2015 9:58 am

Dragoon wrote:
rezaf wrote:Well, in this particular case, it was the player who was retarded - the game does a bad job of informing players about possible staging grounds, but more careful examination of the map should have "solved" this issue.
Nice of you to call a dev retard. Way to go. https://dontbeadickday.com/
You DO realize I was refering to myself as "the player", right?
_____
rezaf

Dragoon.
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Re: Fantastic game - here's my first impressions

Post by Dragoon. » Tue May 19, 2015 10:05 am

rezaf wrote:
Dragoon wrote:
rezaf wrote:Well, in this particular case, it was the player who was retarded - the game does a bad job of informing players about possible staging grounds, but more careful examination of the map should have "solved" this issue.
Nice of you to call a dev retard. Way to go. https://dontbeadickday.com/
You DO realize I was refering to myself as "the player", right?
_____
rezaf
Then I deeply apologized to you. :oops:

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Re: Fantastic game - here's my first impressions

Post by simcc » Tue May 19, 2015 10:17 am

Lmao

rezaf
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Re: Fantastic game - here's my first impressions

Post by rezaf » Fri May 22, 2015 5:35 am

I played a few more of the US missions. Things are still pretty tight prestige-wise, but otherwise I've been doing ok. I still had way more fun playing Japan.

Is it just me or is it (other than in the Japanese campaign) often neccessary to actively disobey your orders if you want to achieve some secondary goals in the US campaign?
There was the scenario where a secondary objective is to sink all japanese carriers, and they have 5 (iirc) that basically remain stationary at the western border of the map.
Your fleet is way in the east, behind a destroyer screen, and you get a pitifully small command allowance for airplanes, so grinding the enemy carriers down with your airforce seems highly unlikely - especially since you also need to keep some interceptors around, the enemy obviously has an airforce too that could sink your fleet.
I managed to sink the two carriers you need to win the scenario eventually, but more than that was not possible with my airforce. I stuck to my orders too long and remained in the east, and when I finally tried to close in, the cheesy scenario design spawned in a huge surface fleet which managed to keep me at bay long enough to finally allow the carriers to escape. But I wouldn't have been able to sink even the two I did had I stuck in the east taking long-haul trips with my torpedo bombers - they just don't do enough damage.

Then in the next scenario you defend an airfield under construction for 35 turns and only are allowed to go on the offensive for the remaining 15 turns - there's no chance in hell to reach the secondary objective cities all the way across the map in that timeframe. Maybe with paratroopers, but I still haven't been able to afford any.
The only way I see to succeed is to disobey your initial hold-the-ground orders and start marching some troops westward right away and try to defend the airfield with a skeleton force.
Since there's a ton of japanese attacking, this might be kinda tricky, but I can't see any alternative ('cept Paras).

How did you guys manage to succeed in these goals (if so)?

Other than that, I've been doing ok, but I missed many secondary goals. In the Japanese campaign, it's usually well within your ability to secure all of them with a little luck and sometimes a semblance of hindsight. As the US, I think hindsight is even more mandatory, and scenario design feels a bit cheesy, with fluctuating command allowances and no information that allows to plan ahead.

1st Scenario designer: Let's hit the player with a 100% numerically superior japanese attack. *chuckles*
2nd Scenario designer: Are you crazy? Let's make that 300%. *mad laughter*
1st Scenario designer: Right! And let's hit his navy with a superior japanese navy as well.
2nd Scenario designer: But what if he somehow overcomes the odds and could use them for defensive bombardment?
1st Scenario designer: Yeah, that's a concern. Let's just take his fleet away from him no matter how well he does!
2nd Scenario designer: Hilariously devious. You know what, how about we give him back his fleet peacemeal eventually, and then ...
1st Scenario designer: ... then, right when he feels he might use them to support his defense, we spawn in a huge fleet with a battleship and all.
2nd Scenario designer: Hehe, exactly. And then we give him three transports with marines and tell him to use them to capture faraway objectives he couldn't even reach in time at full speed.
1st Scenario designer: And then we spawn another huge fleet with a battleship and all in his path so he can never make it.
2nd Scenario designer: But what when he somehow manages to dispose of the first battleship fleet and thus can cover his transports?
1st Scenario designer: Ah, I dunno. Let's just copypaste a bit and spawn in another of them battleship fleets for good measure.
...

At least the primary objectives are reasonably fair, but it still felt mighty cheesy to me.
_____
rezaf

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Re: Fantastic game - here's my first impressions

Post by simcc » Fri May 22, 2015 6:43 am

@Rezaf, US Guadalcanal how to achieve secondary achievement hmmm lol my style as below

1. Defend hard with arty as there is lots of infantry. Look for the small hint and area to help the defend (there is a AT gun that you can capture to help)

2. Shooting down planes. I did that using P38 lighting and 2 AA guns the small MG ones which can really dmg small planes. The key to is station AA guns along the roads so the can use some mobility to catch those planes.

3. Capture secondary objective. Higgin boats helps alot with 2 marine squad supported by 2 DD. Don't worry bout bunker they don't hurt that much lol. No higgin boats use LV blue colour transport. Use these to soften target then move on so the main force coming from road can do the clean up and capture. Watch out for those pesky MG foxhole.

4. Use engineers or seabees alot to take away enemy entrenchment so you can overcome their defense in 1-2 turn. Again don't worry bout them dying they are cheap to replace.

Hope this help, by far US Guadalcanal is my favorite scenario, good job on the developer side just hate that ship disappearing act lol in turn 6 IIRC.

rezaf
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Re: Fantastic game - here's my first impressions

Post by rezaf » Fri May 22, 2015 8:55 am

simcc wrote:1. Defend hard with arty as there is lots of infantry. Look for the small hint and area to help the defend (there is a AT gun that you can capture to help)
I have only 1 ART and not enough resources to buy another one.
simcc wrote:2. Shooting down planes. I did that using P38 lighting and 2 AA guns the small MG ones which can really dmg small planes. The key to is station AA guns along the roads so the can use some mobility to catch those planes.
Another of those "can only be done with hindsight" things, as I mentioned. Even so, I have 1 AA gun and not enough resources to buy another one.
Also, I only have Grumman fighters and can't afford to purchase a P38.
simcc wrote:3. Capture secondary objective. Higgin boats helps alot with 2 marine squad supported by 2 DD. Don't worry bout bunker they don't hurt that much lol. No higgin boats use LV blue colour transport. Use these to soften target then move on so the main force coming from road can do the clean up and capture. Watch out for those pesky MG foxhole.
But the secondary objectives are scattered all over the map, the last in the top right corner. You can't start moving marines up there while the japanese ships are still active and then you have no destroyers. By the time your fleet returns you get 3 marines free, but there's not enough time left to cross the map with those marines?
Also, all my infantry is on foot - even engineers - and (you might start to see a pattern here) I have not enough resources to buy trucks, let alone the LV.
simcc wrote:4. Use engineers or seabees alot to take away enemy entrenchment so you can overcome their defense in 1-2 turn. Again don't worry bout them dying they are cheap to replace.
Cheap isn't free, though. I have maybe 250 resources at that point, and the early scenarios have taught me not to rely on getting any, so I'm kinda wary about spending ALL I have.
I realize you can potentially get quite some "money" in this mission since every secondary objective is "paid" (IIRC you get 50?), but if I expend the resources and fail to make my breakthrough, I'm totally f*cked.

I can only repeat myself, this game relies too much on having knowledge from having played scenarios all the way through previously. I learned most of the secondary objectives are only defended by light fortrifications, so they can relatively easily be taken, but you can't know that beforehand. If you know how many japanese will attack (approximately) and from where (approximately), you can detach forces to pursue secondary objectives early on. But if you play the scenario for the first time, this is impossible.
simcc wrote:Hope this help, by far US Guadalcanal is my favorite scenario, good job on the developer side just hate that ship disappearing act lol in turn 6 IIRC.
Whether I ever replay the US campaign depends on what patches change and how the rest of the campaign unfolds. So far, I didn't really enjoy it all that much.

Basically, I think my campaign was sunk very early on, because the game was so incredibly stingy with resources. I couldn't repair units and had to replace them. I had to always run on low reserves. I couldn't update my units let alone buy new toys. This made it harder to go for secondary goals in subsequent scenarios.
I soldiered on and the situation has stabilized in that I could usually achieve the primary objective rather easy, but I was forced to play very very conseratively.

Maybe it was just how I approached the scenarios, but I felt economically, the Japanese campaign feels like the US campaign should feel and vice versa.
As Japan, I usually had plenty resources to repair everything and to field whatever I felt could be useful. Well, within reason, as the game is extremely stingy to begin with.
As the US, I am constantly struggling to even scrape together enough to keep my planes in the air. I ended several scenarios with troops parked away in some corner because I could no longer afford to maintain fighting strength...
_____
rezaf

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Re: Fantastic game - here's my first impressions

Post by adherbal » Fri May 22, 2015 9:49 am

1st Scenario designer: Let's hit the player with a 100% numerically superior japanese attack. *chuckles*
2nd Scenario designer: Are you crazy? Let's make that 300%. *mad laughter*
1st Scenario designer: Right! And let's hit his navy with a superior japanese navy as well.
2nd Scenario designer: But what if he somehow overcomes the odds and could use them for defensive bombardment?
1st Scenario designer: Yeah, that's a concern. Let's just take his fleet away from him no matter how well he does!
2nd Scenario designer: Hilariously devious. You know what, how about we give him back his fleet peacemeal eventually, and then ...
1st Scenario designer: ... then, right when he feels he might use them to support his defense, we spawn in a huge fleet with a battleship and all.
2nd Scenario designer: Hehe, exactly. And then we give him three transports with marines and tell him to use them to capture faraway objectives he couldn't even reach in time at full speed.
1st Scenario designer: And then we spawn another huge fleet with a battleship and all in his path so he can never make it.
2nd Scenario designer: But what when he somehow manages to dispose of the first battleship fleet and thus can cover his transports?
1st Scenario designer: Ah, I dunno. Let's just copypaste a bit and spawn in another of them battleship fleets for good measure.
First of all - I wish we had the luxury of having TWO scenario designers :roll:

Second, the Guadalcanal scenario is very closely based on the historical progress of the battle. Possibly too much for some, but others (on Steam) have praised this scenario in particular. The number of Japanese attacks, the appearance of attack fleets (2 Japanese battleships were lost at Guadalcanal), the abandoning of the island once the counter attacks turned out to be a failure, etc.

As for having advantages in replaying a scenario, the only way to prevent that would be to randomise the deployment of every AI unit as well as the timings and directions of their attacks. While possible, that's an incredibly time consuming way to design scenarios. In addition, as mentioned above, we tried to stick fairly close to what happened in reality.
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Re: Fantastic game - here's my first impressions

Post by apec » Fri May 22, 2015 10:28 am

adherbal wrote: the Guadalcanal scenario is very closely based on the historical progress of the battle. Possibly too much for some, but others (on Steam) have praised this scenario in particular. The number of Japanese attacks, the appearance of attack fleets (2 Japanese battleships were lost at Guadalcanal), the abandoning of the island once the counter attacks turned out to be a failure, etc.
That was indeed one of the things that makes me love this specific scenario. I tried it 3 or 4 times and never reached all the secondary objectives, the last time was a matter of .... an objective too far. However, I must say that I did not used paras or selective landings, next time I will experiment new approaches ....

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Re: Fantastic game - here's my first impressions

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Fri May 22, 2015 11:08 am

adherbal wrote:First of all - I wish we had the luxury of having TWO scenario designers :roll:
Wait, you did all the work? :shock: ! (where's the worship emote?)

If so, good job!

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Re: Fantastic game - here's my first impressions

Post by monkspider » Fri May 22, 2015 6:13 pm

Well said Rezaf, it is very odd that you are so resource-flush as Japan but resource poor as the US. I think the US needs a boost to its resources, and Japan might need a very slight nerf.
The Guadalcanal scenario made me a bit mad too when it took away my fleet right when I had the Japanese fleet on the ropes. It was still one of my favorite scenarios though, I love how it goes back and forth from having the initiative and being on the defensive. I never got that secondary objective of capturing all the cities either, I cam fairly close though. I think the secret is to send those auxiliary marine units you get to the far western objectives.

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Re: Fantastic game - here's my first impressions

Post by Longasc » Fri May 22, 2015 7:05 pm

BiteNibbleChomp wrote:
adherbal wrote:First of all - I wish we had the luxury of having TWO scenario designers :roll:
Wait, you did all the work? :shock: ! (where's the worship emote?)

If so, good job!

- BNC
Seconded! Sorry for fullquote.

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Re: Fantastic game - here's my first impressions

Post by Longasc » Fri May 22, 2015 7:08 pm

monkspider wrote: it is very odd that you are so resource-flush as Japan but resource poor as the US. I think the US needs a boost to its resources, and Japan might need a very slight nerf.
I ABSOLUTELY agree to that. Well, not to Japan, can't tell, didn't play yet.

But till Leyte/Okinawa US players not only have a very rough start, very bad for first timers in my opinion, it was hard for me as Panzer General/Corps veteran of several years.
You are also constantly struggling for resources, even if you pick the "Field Medic" specialization.

A boost to early US campaign prestige would be nice.

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Re: Fantastic game - here's my first impressions

Post by gunnergoz » Fri May 22, 2015 7:47 pm

The dramatic exit of the US fleet in the early phase of the Guadalcanal scenario is actually pretty accurate historically speaking. The Marines were almost entirely abandoned by the navy after the first battle of Guadalcanal, AKA Battle of Savo Island, when the US lost four cruisers to the Japanese. The transports left so quickly that many of the supplies the Marines needed were never unloaded. So that part, I'm fine with.

I'm also fine with the US being RP-poor in the first part of the game. That too is pretty accurate. But starting with early 1944, US production had ramped up so quickly that the remainder of the war in the Pacific the US never really suffered for resources and supplies. There were big losses in men, ships and aircraft, true, but nothing that the country's production could not sustain and in fact overcome.

The Japanese, however, should see their RP's in rapid decline from mid-1942 onwards and we don't see this in the game.

Both these situations are probably due to game balancing by the design team but it would be nice if there were setup choices to allow for historical resources vs game-balanced resources, and for either side.

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Re: Fantastic game - here's my first impressions

Post by Dragoon. » Fri May 22, 2015 7:59 pm

I made the same experience. I started with the US campaign, now playing the Japanese campaign.

The difference for me with the US and Japanese Campaign is that the US campaign has big time jumps between each scenario, while in the Japanese campaign the scenarios are in a closer timeframe. I'm now at Midway 6 scenarios in the Japanese campaign and still Year '42. As result you have almost no upgrade for the Japanese forces available. No upgrades for any ship, or plane yet, and almost no new units. Only 1 upgrade for infantry ('41 to type '42) and at Midway the first time for a tank.

The US campaign is the complete opposite. Many jumps in time between each scenarios. If you look at the campaign procession based on unit type, I mean naval scenarios, land scenarios, then before you know you are from '41 in '44. As result you have to upgrade almost every scenario, sometimes even during the very same. Which can be infuriating if you just upgrade a unit (Stuart tank).

Upgrading costs is not an issue in the Japanese campaign because it is happening rarely. While in US campaign you can burn all your resources quickly if you trying to keep you forces up to date.

You start with airforce in Pearl Harbor, the next two scenarios are the Japanese invasion of the Philippines, where you have already an upgrade for infantry in between.
Then come 3 naval scenarios where you got upgrades for planes and ships, plus new unit models that are often better, but cost almost full if you want to switch. Then Guadalcanal is happening, 6th mission, 3rd land scenario. Upgrades for Marines, ships and new planes are available again. 7th scenario is again a land scenario but in '43 with many important unit upgrades for infantry, tanks and new unit models. Like the amphibious tanks, heavy artillery, SPG, Corsair fighters and Helldriver bombers which are all not upgrades to existing units.
The next scenario advance the time by an other year to '44. Again new upgrades across the board for all units, many you just bought a scenario ago.

It's really crippling. I would say by as a rule of the thump. It cheaper to buy replacements for inferior units, and to not upgrade any units at all, unless they are badly damaged (because of the discount you get for elite replacements) until scenario 8/9, when you're in '44. Even try to hold back buying tanks and planes if you think can get away with it. Because you can't upgrade Wildcats and Dauntless bombers to Hellcats, Corsairs and Helldiver at discount either.

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Re: Fantastic game - here's my first impressions

Post by simcc » Sat May 23, 2015 7:39 am

Hmm fully agree with Dragoon on US upgrades as I found myself constantly upgrading US troops. Here is my experience for US campaign finish it on Admiral difficulty and my units are very up to date heheheh so let me share my style abit

1. Didn't use marine until Guadalcanal as infantry and engineers are far cheaper to replace. No Heavy Infantry either. I usually lost a lot on engineers as my tactic is always 2 infantry and 1 engineer to engage with eng going first.

2. In Philippines no air power for me as I find that fighter engagement is very expensive to replace hence AA gun is my choice which you get 2 for free in Pearl.

3. Naval battle I spend most on dauntless bombers with a ratio of usually 2 bombers 1 fighter per carrier and also a single torpedo bomber for softening carrier or battleship for my dauntless to wack it. Carrier all was Yorktown class non upgraded since she is nvr in battle if you protect its placement so no need to spend for a few air defence upgrade.

4. Cheaper way to kill zeros is using non core bomber as bait and uses fighter for cover it seems that zeros always hit the bomber rather than your fighter.

5. Use lots of DD rather than cruisers as Japanese cruisers outclass US ones with those torpedoes so my navy is full of DD 2 subs and BB think I only have 2 cruisers the entire campaign hehehe. Seems US DD is tougher than Japs DD and if you spot a mogami or tone just rush 4 DD to torpedoes it ignore japs DD hahaha they don't hurt me much. Note most of my DD is summers

Hope it helps

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Re: Fantastic game - here's my first impressions

Post by Dragoon. » Sat May 23, 2015 7:56 am

To see how disproportion it seem for me. I was struggling hard to buy a single Iowa class BB ship at Philippine Sea scenario (8 mission US - Campaign). My 2nd BB at all and frankly a waste too.
I'm now at Guadalcanal (Japan) (7th mission Japan Campaign). I started the scenario with already 3 Yamatos in my core and over 1200 resources point to spent. Still year '42.
Fun fact, two US carriers at Midway where sunk by my 3 x Yamato TF. :twisted:

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Re: Fantastic game - here's my first impressions

Post by simcc » Sat May 23, 2015 12:53 pm

Hmm Dragoon. Below is the campaign and troops I use to build up my resources. Can't remember 100% and I play on admiral difficulty.

Pearl - no purchase and I didn't engage directly with the hawk only use him as support protecting BB taking free shot so pretty intact for the nxt mission

Philippine - purchase only infantry and engineer and a mobile arty which I set to AT (seems the best AT at that time) 2 infantry and 2 engineer I bought. Use the philly recruit as cannon folder think only 1-2 survive. Didn't deploy any plane

Bataan - bought 2 howie that's all

Marshall raid - bought 4 DD and a carrier Lexi IIRC 1 wildcat and 1 dauntless

Coral - bought a carrier avenger IIRC. Another wildcat and dauntless and devastator

Midway - bought a BB and another carrier and upgraded my avenger to Yorktown another dauntless and a sub

Guadalcanal - bought another BB and upgraded my infantry to marine
Think at this scenario my force have build up as below
Land - 4 marine. 2 engineer, 3 arty, 2 AA
Navy - 2 BB, 2 CA, 6 DD, 3 carrier and 1 sub
Air- 2 wildcat 1 p38, 3 dauntless and a devastator

All force later is upgraded with some tank like the blue LV etc

Hope it help US player to build up their resources with this build gonna do the hardest difficulty after I finish my IJ campaign

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Re: Fantastic game - here's my first impressions

Post by Dragoon. » Mon May 25, 2015 7:01 pm

Thanks for the tips. I gonna bookmark this post, for when I tackle the US campaign again, after I finished the Japanese campaign. :)

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