ABOUT THE DICE ROLLS

Take one of the most modern, fun and engaging board games created in recent years. Match it with cutting-edge technology. Add a ridiculously well-crafted art style and a ton of extra content. This is the recipe to one of the most thrilling, charming and captivating strategy games you will ever find!
IainMcNeil
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 13434
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:19 am

Re: ABOUT THE DICE ROLLS

Post by IainMcNeil » Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:49 pm

Ultimately we're going to have options so players can choose to play how they want, we just need to work out the best way to deliver that and make sure teh game is not too punishing for new players.

nostradunwhich
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:14 am

Re: ABOUT THE DICE ROLLS

Post by nostradunwhich » Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:24 pm

IainMcNeil wrote:The game does not cheat but clearly people dont understand probability so we have to do something about it.
Apparently this is very true. Having played the board game version for over a year, I find the rolls here just as random as any other game of HoN. That does not mean I do not harbor in my heart the thought that the dice are out to get me, but that is just human nature :)

Your previous points about human perception are some that more people should take to heart, but this is the Internet. Here a failure is always the fault of a hack or a cheat or some other factor :)

I think the logger is a great idea, but for those really dedicated to the idea that any failure they experience is due to the game code, then they can as easily say you just faked the numbers in the logger to make it look random. For those a little less rabid and more curious (hopefully the majority), the logger would be a nice way to get some solid data on the randomness of the system if we are so inclined.

Thank you for considering such a step to ease the concern of at least the more reasonable players.

nostradunwhich
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:14 am

Re: ABOUT THE DICE ROLLS

Post by nostradunwhich » Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:29 pm

WAGinWNY wrote:Instead of offering the anti-streak option offered above, which breaks the very mathematical meaning of *RND (theory of large numbers included), it might be better to offer an option of increasing the base statistical values of the units so that the dice rolls become less important. For me, however, what makes board games enjoyable is the pucker factor you experience when you roll the dice, because you know in advance that you will have to beat the odds to be successful. (Kind of like in real combat, or so I have read.)
Heroes of Normandie is based on an actual board game, so playing with the numbers would be breaking that link.

An option where you pick from a "deck" of values 1 through 6 would ensure a pretty equal distribution for all values, and the A/I can still pick the 6 when you would prefer it pick the 1 :)

WAGinWNY
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:43 pm
Location: Western NY

Re: ABOUT THE DICE ROLLS

Post by WAGinWNY » Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:14 pm

nostradunwhich wrote:Heroes of Normandie is based on an actual board game, so playing with the numbers would be breaking that link.


This being the case, I agree that altering the base values of the units would not be a good idea, unless it's done so only as part of a "beginners" level of difficulty.

WAGinWNY
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:43 pm
Location: Western NY

Re: ABOUT THE DICE ROLLS

Post by WAGinWNY » Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:57 pm

I just played two more games of mission 4 in the scenario campaign, and this confuses me:

-- in one attack, the total combat value after the dice roll was 6 vs 6, yet the defender was eliminated.
-- in another attack, the total combat value after the dice roll was 8 vs 5, yet the defender suffered 'turned to weaker side.'

Perhaps this is what some of the folks who don't 'get' the dice rolls are grumbling about: there seems to be a random multiplier applied even after the dice rolls are factored in. It's sometimes difficult to reconcile why the specific result of an attack, i.e. defender is eliminated vs turned to weaker side, is what it is.

??

IronFist00
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Posts: 181
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:21 am

Re: ABOUT THE DICE ROLLS

Post by IronFist00 » Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:55 pm

WAGinWNY any more details? Was the 6v6 in an attack or an assault? In an attack the defender would be hit and if it had no more steps (hp) left it dies. If it was an assault, a tie is inconclusive.

In a 8v5 win for the attacker, if the targeted unit has 2 steps of health it is flipped to the weaker side and would survive.

More details would help determine if what you are seeing is correct or a bug.

WAGinWNY
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:43 pm
Location: Western NY

Re: ABOUT THE DICE ROLLS

Post by WAGinWNY » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:36 pm

IronFist wrote:WAGinWNY any more details? Was the 6v6 in an attack or an assault? In an attack the defender would be hit and if it had no more steps (hp) left it dies. If it was an assault, a tie is inconclusive.

In a 8v5 win for the attacker, if the targeted unit has 2 steps of health it is flipped to the weaker side and would survive.

More details would help determine if what you are seeing is correct or a bug.
Okay, thanks. This makes sense, so I doubt it is a bug. But did I miss where this is explained somewhere? Could/should the combat results-prediction or post-roll debriefing illustrate it? I'm convinced there is no AI "cheat" at work, but one needs to know why the target wasn't eliminated even when the dice roll was a clear victory. I'm a veteran player of dice roll/card draw games, and I don't recall ever being this confused before. It's easy to see why newcomers would be put off.

This really is a great game. My comments are not meant to be critical in a negative sense. Perhaps a re-write of the tutorial missions such that more/better instruction is provided is all that's needed for new players to not be turned off.

Thank you for your reply.

IronFist00
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Posts: 181
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:21 am

Re: ABOUT THE DICE ROLLS

Post by IronFist00 » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:45 pm

No problem.

How I learned the mechanisms was by playing the tutorial missions repeatedly, playing the other three missions in the first US campaign repeatedly, and reading the manual PDF (":\\Heroes Of Normandie\Manuals\HoN_English_manual_EBOOK.pdf). I know reading manuals isn't big nowadays but I learned a lot from it, including what all the icons mean. As for playing the missions repeatedly I find I can pick up a lot of things by doing this, especially when I try to figure out the combats before the game determines them for me.

Oh and mousing over the combat information on the right side will also explain a lot of stuff. Also right-clicking on units gives you more detail on them and what they can do.

I hope this stuff helps further.

IainMcNeil
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 13434
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:19 am

Re: ABOUT THE DICE ROLLS

Post by IainMcNeil » Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:28 pm

** UPDATE **

The 1.06 update has a system to prevent (well greatly reduce really) any runs of bad luck for the player. Try it out and see what you think. If you prefer the real random rolls then turn on Iron Man mode in options!

pantherboy
Tournament 3rd Place
Tournament 3rd Place
Posts: 802
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:30 pm

Re: ABOUT THE DICE ROLLS

Post by pantherboy » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:51 am

For playing head to head is Ironman the default? Is it possible for one player to be using it but the other is not?

zakblood
Most Active User 2017
Most Active User 2017
Posts: 13698
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:44 pm

Re: ABOUT THE DICE ROLLS

Post by zakblood » Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:39 am

Iron man mode yes a question, does this effect the dice roles in a multiplayer match, i know it does is single.
I turned on iron man mode when i got the update and have played a couple of turns in multi since.
So i was wondering have i shot myself in the foot if my opponent is not playing the multiplayer in iron man mode, is he getting the more biased dice rolls now??
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.as ... =&#3944591

question been asked, no idea of answer so re posted it here, thanks :wink:

Tamas
Slitherine
Slitherine
Posts: 452
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:14 am

Re: ABOUT THE DICE ROLLS

Post by Tamas » Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:27 am

For mutliplayer games, IronMan Mode is always ON, regardless of the players' settings in Options.

tycoon
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:04 am

Re: ABOUT THE DICE ROLLS

Post by tycoon » Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:35 pm

increasing the base stats of some units by even 1 point will reduce the chanse of them getting killed by 30-50%.. might be better to wait till the cards are added since they are a real gamechanger - if you have the right card for the right situation that is
Be carefull what you wish for, you just might get it!

zakblood
Most Active User 2017
Most Active User 2017
Posts: 13698
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:44 pm

Re: ABOUT THE DICE ROLLS

Post by zakblood » Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:39 pm

I understand you like it the way it is, but surely you must understand that if some simple changes can be made to make it appeal to other people, without changing your enjoyment at all, it would be stupid not to?

Remember when people learn a board game it is a communal activity, usually with someone who already knows it. When playing a computer game you are on your own. You need a way to ease in to it. When you first start you know nothing and play badly. Unless it is a very badly designed game you will get better as you go. As players improve as they go the challenge has to increase to. If the challenge is too high players give up. If too low players get bored.

If you do some research on game flow you'll find this the ultimate aim of any game experience (its the one more turn feeling). It pitches the level of ability with the level of challenge and is something a game designer is always aiming for.

Iron man mode means a different thing in pretty much every game it is used in and the only thing they all have in common is that they make the game harder. The description makes it clear if you look in game.

As I've said elsewhere this is a temporary fix until we have real difficulty levels to help ease people in. The kind of user that finds things too easy is much more likely to turn things up than the kind of user who finds things hard is to turn it down. User that find it too hard will most likely give up. Also it is far less of an issue to find a game initially too easy than too hard.
as Ian has mentioned above, this is a temp fix / solution so once cards are implemented it will add to the game not diminish it with the dice roll change, imo it's a good thing, and will over time be understood as that once other things are in place etc.
1.jpg
1.jpg (245.46 KiB) Viewed 4171 times

Skanvak
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 315
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:45 pm

Re: ABOUT THE DICE ROLLS

Post by Skanvak » Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:39 am

I read what Ian said earlier : "the problem is not randomness but difficulty". I agree. I have no problem with randomness but as someone else put it : few units and short scenarios make for some very tiring situation if you have bad luck. I missed some secondaries mission where I need to destroyed a sherman because he survived 4 hits (not a problem per se in a one stand or rogue campaign) and the scenario end before I could finish it despite the fact he is definetly dead. The other aspect is that when you fail you have to redo the mission until you actually have luck (I think to the first german mission where the tactics is definitly to send a grenade inside the big building, but if the grenade fail, you are good to redo the game because you don't have enough time to make up for a bad luck (and not a streak)). The example I used is only one die, I think that the game, though fun and simple with its randmoness should allow for a bit more turn in certain scenarion to allow the player to come up with a plan B if thing go bad on the die. Other solution would have to have campaign where you advanced even if you lose (that would be nice any way).
Best regards,


Skanvak

markfeldman
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:57 am

Re: ABOUT THE DICE ROLLS

Post by markfeldman » Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:10 pm

Do away with the dice genrator and use six cubes face down. player picks the cube which would generate a number take the computer out of it. also I have watched the computer roll 3 6's in a row and I have rolled 4 2's in a row using up the veteran cards.

Skanvak
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 315
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:45 pm

Re: ABOUT THE DICE ROLLS

Post by Skanvak » Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:18 am

markfeldman wrote:Do away with the dice genrator and use six cubes face down. player picks the cube which would generate a number take the computer out of it. also I have watched the computer roll 3 6's in a row and I have rolled 4 2's in a row using up the veteran cards.
That's very normal. I don't see any anomaly in your series and the other who knows about probability will agree I am sure. The reason is that your series are too short.
For the record I don't like the solution of taking cubes face down. It does not solve the problem.
Best regards,


Skanvak

Waltero
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:44 pm

Re: ABOUT THE DICE ROLLS

Post by Waltero » Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:12 pm

Simple solution; don't think of them as dice.

As in any war game, if you think of them as dice it will spoil the game for you.

Does the computer cheat...yes.
Do humans cheat...noooo.

pipfromslitherine
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 8770
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:35 pm

Re: ABOUT THE DICE ROLLS

Post by pipfromslitherine » Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:41 pm

Waltero wrote:Simple solution; don't think of them as dice.

As in any war game, if you think of them as dice it will spoil the game for you.

Does the computer cheat...yes.
Do humans cheat...noooo.
Does the computer cheat? NO.

Cheers

Pip
follow me on Twitter here

Waltero
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:44 pm

Re: ABOUT THE DICE ROLLS

Post by Waltero » Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:43 pm

pipfromslitherine wrote:
Waltero wrote:Simple solution; don't think of them as dice.

As in any war game, if you think of them as dice it will spoil the game for you.

Does the computer cheat...yes.
Do humans cheat...noooo.
Does the computer cheat? NO.

Cheers

Pip
Rhighttt :roll:

I actually believe you. Most people have it in there head that the computer always cheats.

Post Reply

Return to “Heroes of Normandie”