Japanese Destroyers!

[captkiwi]

How is it that Japanese destroyers can move, do a sonar sweep, and fire at my subs all in one turn? I can only do one action per turn. I actually read the manual too, maybe I missed something?

[bruce1944]

Never saw that happen! Boy sign some of those bad boys up for me

[Erik2]

I remember a similar report way back. Thought that one had been fixed.
If you encounter it again, zip and attach the output_log.txt (main game installation -> Order of Battle - Pacific_Data folder). This will hopefully help the devs.

[Brenmusik]

It's been going on for sometime, I thought it was a rule change. It is a well known fact that the devs don't like subs
... look at the range of depth charges, the same as Allied torpedos.
Also the discrepancy of the damage done, between subs and torpedo bombers.
Not to mention (but I will ) subs be detected by ships ending their turn in the same hex.

[Shireshio]

True, and the fact that Submarines do far less of an impact in damage against ships..(COUGH MIDGET SUBMARINES)

[bru888]

The thing about submarines is this, I think: Balanced gameplay. As attested to recently by our resident scenario designer Erik, it is much easier to design multiplayer scenarios than for solo player vs. AI because of the difficulty of maintaining balanced gameplay.

I've already seen in this game the importance of aircraft carriers to winning or losing some scenarios. Lose one or two carriers and you are sunk (no pun intended).

So, we all know how hard it is to locate an enemy submarine. You can sonar ping away and still hear the whoosh of incoming torpedoes. Let's say their damage factor is amplified. You're winning a scenario, got the upper hand although your carrier has sustained some minor damage. Whoosh, whoosh! Bam, bam! Scenario over.

I want the chance to FIGHT BACK rather than letting a sneaky sub which is so hard to detect end it all so suddenly. This may have been in the minds of the game designers.

Maybe subs should be stronger. Here's my suggestion: If you do beef them up, then grant the human player's destroyers the capability of sailing AND sonar pinging in the same move. I could live (and fight) with that. It may not be technically correct; did ships need to be stationary in order to use sonar in WWII or was the technology advanced enough to adjust for movement and noise?

Anyway, that's my suggestion.

[Erik2]

I think destroyer's sonars work ok. I wish the depth charges wouldn't automatically cause so much damage.
Destroyers in the neighbourhood being able to gang up on a poor sub is too much. The sub would dive deep after the first whiff of a destroyer attack.
So only 1 destroyer should be able to launch depth charges against a single sub, and only at 1 hex range please.

Sub torpedoes should inflict at least the same damage as a torpedo plane. They can send off a spread of torpedoes vs a single one.
Basically I would like torpedoes to potentially cause larger damage, but an attack should also have a chance of being a total miss.

[SnowWolf]

The destroyer ops against subs also frustrated me no end. Any chance that this behavior will change? It near drove me nuts when I was playing. Hopefully that won't carry over to Morning Sun!

[bru888]

Just before the Battle of The Phllippine Sea scenario starts, there is that message about the Bureau of Ordnance finally fixing the problems of the Mark 14 and 15 torpedoes. That brought to mind the criticisms that I have seen of submarine effectiveness in this game and what I said above. Anybody know if this message is in fact an indication that submarine and destroyer torpedoes become more powerful at this point in the campaign or is it just "window dressing" like the news flash about Admiral Yamamoto's plane getting shot down?

[BiteNibbleChomp]

No in game meaning AFAIK.

- BNC

[Erik2]

It looks like it is only one version of each sub class, so no upgrades.
Should be easy to fix though, you probably won't need a new graphic, only new stats.
But then the original attack stats could use a boost first...

[bru888]

No in game meaning AFAIK.

- BNC

Thanks. Makes sense, I guess, now that I think of it. People would not be disparaging submarine efficacy if its weakness was only a widely-known challenge inserted into the campaign. I revert to what I said previously, then; IMO, developers would need to make it easier to detect and fight subs if they were to be made more powerful.