My problems with the new edition.

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MikeMarchant
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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by MikeMarchant » Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:39 pm

alzado_77 wrote:
stockwellpete wrote:
FroBodine wrote:For me, the game has lost all it's charm. I'll be uninstalling it and playing the older versions. Thank you for the update, but no thanks.
Tbh I think you're bending over too far backwards to be understanding Pete. This version has been a long time in development and it should be in 99% perfect working order - just like any other device or service you would buy. Why should we have to work through all the bugs with the devs over an indefinite future period? The fact that there already two new expansions, for which you have to pay, attached to an imperfect new engine only exacerbates the problem.

For what it’s worth, I’d like to say a few words about this kind of ‘product’.

I agree that when I buy most products and services I expect them to work. I expect them to meet my expectations and for them to fulfil their purpose, whether that’s a can of beans, a new computer, a ballpoint pen or a floppy hat. If the product doesn’t meet my expectations I want it to be replaced with one that does or I want my money back. Entirely reasonable, I think.

However, I feel that this kind of product is different. Buying a game of this kind is not like buying any other product. Not just because it’s software, with all the unique challenges that brings (if my Word processor didn’t function as I wanted I’d ditch it and get another), but because it’s about community and it’s about cooperation and it’s about investing in the future.

It’s not possible to release a piece of software of this complexity without bugs, and it’s not possible to release a game of this kind with all the features that we all want. It needs for the game to be released to large numbers of people in order to get it right. Large numbers of people to help iron out the bugs, and for the feedback that comes with large numbers of people playing the game and telling the developers what works and what doesn’t, what we like and what we don’t like, what we feel is missing and what we feel we could do without.

Once the game is released it is no longer Slitherine’s game or Newrosoft’s game it is our game. We play a vital role in turning an imperfect early version into a game that is going to last for years and hopefully, one day, exceed our expectations.

This is a journey that might be painful at the beginning, and one that requires patience and cooperation and collaboration, but if we are willing to work together in this way we can make this game something to be proud of and to enjoy for many years to come. It’s all about what we’re willing to invest, not just in the price tag, but with our efforts, to keep the FoG community prospering and growing.

I think our community is worth that investment and I hope you do too.


Best Wishes

Mike

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by Cablenexus » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:16 pm

I mostly agree with what you write. I support many titles this way already. They are called Early Access (EA). This product isn't presented as an EA title but as a re-release from an older game to keep the game up to date for newer systems.

With all respect the product delivered is in many ways very unfriendly towards new players. The symbols, names, stats and other mechanism doesn't match the manual. Info on screen isn't presented with images but just plain text. The advanced combat report takes 25% of my normal PC monitor on high res settings, imgae quality of units and terrain is much pixelated compared to the older version. And as another player already stated the charm for me is gone as well if I don't see minitaures anymore in a game I bought for the miniatures...

To get a bigger audience I think you need at least test the game on different systems. The dev stated that he tested the release gold version on just an nvidia setup and not on an AMD setup. I use an AMD setup and the game isn't working correctly for me.

To get a bigger audience the game must be released on Steam at least and need to be attractive for new players. I hope some veterans working on a guide at least to show us the new players what is changed compared to the old version. I really have no idea when I see the unit description without picture example and without normal text what means a AU 2 and E P2 etc etc

To be honest if this product was released on Steam today I was written a negative review for it. I can not enjoy the new game at the moment. It's too complex for his own good with all hidden information and with outdated help files.
Imho I help the dev and Slitherine more to just give my honest opinion. Please don't take away features that are working fine in the old version.
I can't find another way to contribute and cooparate more then to speak out in the forums what I think is wrong with the new version.

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by MikeMarchant » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:58 pm

Cablenexus wrote:I mostly agree with what you write. I support many titles this way already. They are called Early Access (EA). This product isn't presented as an EA title but as a re-release from an older game to keep the game up to date for newer systems.

With all respect the product delivered is in many ways very unfriendly towards new players. The symbols, names, stats and other mechanism doesn't match the manual. Info on screen isn't presented with images but just plain text. The advanced combat report takes 25% of my normal PC monitor on high res settings, imgae quality of units and terrain is much pixelated compared to the older version. And as another player already stated the charm for me is gone as well if I don't see minitaures anymore in a game I bought for the miniatures...

To get a bigger audience I think you need at least test the game on different systems. The dev stated that he tested the release gold version on just an nvidia setup and not on an AMD setup. I use an AMD setup and the game isn't working correctly for me.

To get a bigger audience the game must be released on Steam at least and need to be attractive for new players. I hope some veterans working on a guide at least to show us the new players what is changed compared to the old version. I really have no idea when I see the unit description without picture example and without normal text what means a AU 2 and E P2 etc etc

To be honest if this product was released on Steam today I was written a negative review for it. I can not enjoy the new game at the moment. It's too complex for his own good with all hidden information and with outdated help files.
Imho I help the dev and Slitherine more to just give my honest opinion. Please don't take away features that are working fine in the old version.
I can't find another way to contribute and cooparate more then to speak out in the forums what I think is wrong with the new version.
To be honest I haven't yet tried the new version, so I can't speak to its faults at all. I accept that it might be truly awful, but that isn't really my point.

Honest opinion is what I would imagine the developers would welcome the most, and from what you've said, Cablenexus, it sounds like you're making a very valuable contribution already.


Best Wishes

Mike

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by stockwellpete » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:12 pm

MikeMarchant wrote:This is a journey that might be painful at the beginning, and one that requires patience and cooperation and collaboration, but if we are willing to work together in this way we can make this game something to be proud of and to enjoy for many years to come. It’s all about what we’re willing to invest, not just in the price tag, but with our efforts, to keep the FoG community prospering and growing.
Yes, very good post, Mike. I think this is the right way to think about it now.

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by TheGrayMouser » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:17 pm

IainMcNeil wrote:The version has been there for some time for feedback but we didn't hear much from the players
What the?? Iain, no offense but pretty much all the critiques heard right now were voiced DURING the very long beta...

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by Blathergut » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:29 pm

And some of us grew weary to the bone of mentioning things, like the visuals not looking as good. That's why I stopped working on the beta.

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by DonCzirr » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:39 pm

stockwellpete wrote:
FroBodine wrote:For me, the game has lost all it's charm. I'll be uninstalling it and playing the older versions. Thank you for the update, but no thanks.
I think we all have to give the new version a chance. It has only just come out and the feedback has only just started. For those of us who have been playing the game a long time (often around 5 years) I think we have to accept that the older game is passing now and a new one is in its earliest stages of development. It is very easy to cry "bug" when the reality is that the new version was never going to be exactly the same as the original game.

So we definitely need to have some patience and we can help the developers at Newrosoft and Slitherine by asking our questions and making our observations over the next few months so that any initial problems can be resolved quickly. Once we get beyond this "awkward period" the future for the game looks very promising indeed.

+1 ... Well said Pete.

The team seems to be undertaking quite a few challenges and working towards cross-platform release and that must be quite a daunting feat to pull off.

Keep positive Cothyso, weather the storm, listen to the feedback and keep going on those improvements.

I am willing to be patient and am greatly looking forward to upgrading to your new version in the near future (and also buying on iPAD and Android when released).
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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by FroBodine » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:47 pm

I've already posted my issues with the new version. But, I would just like to add - please, please redo the DAG army creator. It is much less user-friendly than it was before. It was perfectly fine how it used to be. We don't need everything stretched out so much.

Also - the point cablenexus made about the detailed stats window being way too huge is another thing. It could be done much more elegantly and not right in the middle of the battle screen.

It would also be very helpful if all the acronyms and abbreviations were explained in the detailed screen. It's like a math formula right now, and not at all user-friendly, which is what you said you were trying to go for.

Finally - please put back the title text for each of the different unit stats, e.g. Cohesion: Stable, instead of just saying Stable. This is VERY useful to know what everything means.

Thanks!

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by fogman » Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:19 am

keep calm. i thought the original was awful (and did not bother playing much) until version 1.8.

alzado_77
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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by alzado_77 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:47 am

....
Last edited by alzado_77 on Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by alzado_77 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:48 am

For what it’s worth, I’d like to say a few words about this kind of ‘product’.

I agree that when I buy most products and services I expect them to work. I expect them to meet my expectations and for them to fulfil their purpose, whether that’s a can of beans, a new computer, a ballpoint pen or a floppy hat. If the product doesn’t meet my expectations I want it to be replaced with one that does or I want my money back. Entirely reasonable, I think.

However, I feel that this kind of product is different. Buying a game of this kind is not like buying any other product. Not just because it’s software, with all the unique challenges that brings (if my Word processor didn’t function as I wanted I’d ditch it and get another), but because it’s about community and it’s about cooperation and it’s about investing in the future.

It’s not possible to release a piece of software of this complexity without bugs, and it’s not possible to release a game of this kind with all the features that we all want. It needs for the game to be released to large numbers of people in order to get it right. Large numbers of people to help iron out the bugs, and for the feedback that comes with large numbers of people playing the game and telling the developers what works and what doesn’t, what we like and what we don’t like, what we feel is missing and what we feel we could do without.

Once the game is released it is no longer Slitherine’s game or Newrosoft’s game it is our game. We play a vital role in turning an imperfect early version into a game that is going to last for years and hopefully, one day, exceed our expectations.

This is a journey that might be painful at the beginning, and one that requires patience and cooperation and collaboration, but if we are willing to work together in this way we can make this game something to be proud of and to enjoy for many years to come. It’s all about what we’re willing to invest, not just in the price tag, but with our efforts, to keep the FoG community prospering and growing.

I think our community is worth that investment and I hope you do too.


Best Wishes

Mike
Hi Mike.

I fully understand your point of view, but as some posters indicate below, many of these issues were raised (and not resolved) while the new version was still in development. Why should they be occurring now?

When you say "It’s not possible to release a piece of software of this complexity without bugs, and it’s not possible to release a game of this kind with all the features that we all want. It needs for the game to be released to large numbers of people in order to get it right. Large numbers of people to help iron out the bugs, and for the feedback that comes with large numbers of people playing the game and telling the developers what works and what doesn’t, what we like and what we don’t like, what we feel is missing and what we feel we could do without." - this is exactly what should occur at the development stage, not in post-sale. While everyone would accept a few minor niggles, some of the issues are clearly bigger than that and reducing enjoyment of the new version.

Therefore I believe you have distinguish firmly between those two stages. No-one in any area of the purchasing public buys something in order to be able to develop it Mike. As soon as money changes hands, the product must match the value given.

My only wish is for the old version to continue to receive the support of PBEM servers so that I can continue to play the game I love. If the new version turns out to be better eventually, I will be even happier.

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by alzado_77 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:24 am

IainMcNeil wrote:The development team for FoG unfortunately left 4 years ago when Newrosoft took over and wrote the game from scratch. There is no support for the old version and hasn't been for 4 years. The only way FoG in its current form can continue is with Newrosoft. The version has been there for some time for feedback but we didn't hear much from the players. I know Dan is committed to improving the game so give him your feedback and he'll do what he can.

If you prefer to pay the old version you can. It still runs but you cannot use the expansions in it. This update is for free and you don't need to use it - its completely your choice.
Does that mean the PBEM servers for the original version will continue to be supported Iain?

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by MikeMarchant » Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:22 am

Hi Alzado,

It's not my place to defend Unity or to tell other people what they should or shouldn't be happy with. It's a personal thing for sure. I understand your frustrations and when I do start playing the new version I am sure I'm going to be sharing them.

I suppose my take on it would be that resources are probably short and with only a single developer on the game there's a limit to what can be achieved in any given time frame. Dan has certainly done a spectacular job in terms of the amount of work and skill he's put in, but if he's under pressure to get something workable out to start making some money for the game I would expect something fairly basic to start with and then a cycle of continuous improvement from there. I have no doubt that there are genuine commercial pressures on Slitherine/Newrosoft, and resources that have been invested in Unity might have been invested in something else that could have been developed faster and might have made more money. It's not an ideal situation, for sure, but I feel like I need to acknowledge the commercial realities here and be grateful that the game I love has been given this new lease of life. It could have just been abandoned.

I realise the game could have just been left as it was with the new expansions being released for that format, and perhaps for some development to add new features, but the PC market is pretty small these days and sales would probably not justify much effort on behalf of the developers/publishers. The real money (big money) is in the mobile games market, so for Slitherine/Newrosoft to redevelop the game for that market makes perfect commercial sense. If it works and it takes off we benefit from that decision because it will expand the community hugely; the number of new players coming to the game is likely to be vast compared to a PC makeover, and the money it can earn for the developers/publishers means they can afford to support the game very much better than would otherwise have been the case. Difficult for us in these early stages, perhaps, but I hope we are the ones who will reap the rewards in the long term.

Since I have discovered FoG (just 2 years ago) I have really appreciated the very special community of people who play the game and contribute so much by running leagues and tournaments and campaigns for the rest of us that I feel as though that community is as important as the game itself. This is our game, it belongs to us in all the important senses and I have no doubt that it will grow and improve without patience and cooperation. As you've probably guessed, I'm an optimist.



Best Wishes

Mike

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by MikeMarchant » Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:22 am

double post

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by alzado_77 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:38 am

Hi Mike

I think you're really acknowledging that the new version should have been developed as a separate entity to the existing FoG... Perhaps it should be called something different, and/or developed exclusively for mobile platforms? Then Slitherine could just leave the original game alone or develop it modestly within the existing framework.

Slitherine have created a difficult situation for themselves by trying to have their cake and eat it, and 'unifying' a project in a way that obviously created huge problems for Dan. It's not his fault, but neither it is problem of the players - after all we have all contributed a huge amount of money and time to the game. As you know I've created almost 100 scenarios which I've had the pleasure to share with other players.

A mistake has been made and it's best to admit it. The development phase was very long, the end product is an unfinished work, and we are under no obligation to be grateful for the new version as it stands. While I'm happy to give time for the game to improve and progress in any direction the devs consider viable, I'd also like to reserve the right to keep playing the original version in which I invested my money, for a long time to come.

I feel that attitude is entirely reasonable and should be supported by Slitherine.

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by MikeMarchant » Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:48 pm

Hi Alzado,

Yes, I think you're right. The development phase was very long, the end product is an unfinished work, and we are not obligated to be grateful for the new version as it stands. I also agree that the original version should continue to be supported, at least for the foreseeable future, to give existing players the choice.

Having two separate versions of the game, developing this new one as a separate product, does raise problems of it's own, though. Inevitably it would result in two separate FoG communities, the old and the new, although some old players might also be members of the new community too, and the old community would likely wither and die in time as new players (and there may be very many of those coming in from the mobile market) join only the new community and the old slowly fades away. It would mean that the old PBEM service would need to be maintained alongside the new, which I presume would incur some cost to Slitherine, with no financial return to support it. I know we've all paid out a lot of money for the original game and add-ons, but how many years of support does that buy us? How many should it buy us? I don't have an answer to that question, but I think it's reasonable not to expect it to be forever.

What about the leagues and the Slitherine Cup? Do Slitherine run two parallel competitions or just the one for the new game? There are costs associated with that too. If all the action is attached to the new game that'll diminish the old community even further.

We should have the choice to play the old or the new, I agree, but that choice does have consequences, and we need to acknowledge that. And we need to acknowledge that Slitherine have to balance their books. Perhaps a compromise might be to charge a small subscription for players who want to retain the old game (if they want to play online) to cover Slitherine's costs, and to make it worth their while to continue with the competitions people might enjoy.

Whether Slitherine have made a mistake with this or not is difficult for me to judge. I suspect that, from a commercial point of view, it's the only way to proceed, and it's a decision which might, in the long run, serve us all better, however painful it might be at the moment.

As an aside, some time ago I bought a game called 'Tigers on the Hunt' when it was first released by Matrix. I paid £40+ for it and when I first played it I was shocked and horrified that the game was almost unplayable. It was a painful and far from pleasurable experience. Like this new version of FoG, it was developed by a single developer, but one who had a full time job and had developed the game in his spare time over 10 years. What he had achieved was remarkable, but it was nowhere near professional enough to be released, let alone with that sort of price tag. Understandably there were a lot of complaints from players who had paid out a lot of money for something that was so inadequate. There was no indication on the Matrix website that this was a game that was half-baked.

On reflection, though, I realised that we are not really dealing with computer games in the traditional sense. If I had paid out that much money for the latest Call of Duty and it was so poorly constructed I would be quite rightly demanding my money back, but games like FoG and Tigers on the Hunt are not sold in their tens of millions, with a new version released every year, demanding even more outlay. These are games that are played by a very small number of people (by comparison) and the gross returns for developers and publishers are tiny by comparison. We're practically in the realm of hobbyist stuff here and I felt I needed to adjust my expectations as a result. If developers can't start to make a return until the game is 'finished' they're at risk of going bust, or they're just not going to develop games of this kind at all. We'll end up with the choice of yet another Call of Duty, Sims, or Minecraft to play. I would rather invest my money and my time with the sorts of games Matrix and Slitherine produce, putting up with the defects and shortfalls and hoping that in time, if they can make a reasonable return, the game will develop and improve.

Do I want a game like this one that I love turned out professionally from day one, with all the features I dream of? Yes. Would I like it to be developed further, with a large and lively community. Yes. Would I like it to cost me less than a tenner? Yes. But I recognise that these things are unrealistic and given the choice, I would prefer the imperfect, slowly improving game of FoG to a highly polished Minecraft. And I honestly believe that that is the realistic choice I am presented with.


Best Wishes

Mike

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by stockwellpete » Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:59 pm

MikeMarchant wrote: What about the leagues and the Slitherine Cup? Do Slitherine run two parallel competitions or just the one for the new game? There are costs associated with that too. If all the action is attached to the new game that'll diminish the old community even further.
I think the answer to this is that the FOG Digital League and Slitherine KO Trophy will be just for the new version. My view is that we have to go forward now even though, at the moment, the game is not ready for tournament play. I will have to make a judgement in mid-August whether we can start the KO on September 1st and another judgement at the beginning of September about the viability of starting the FOGDL on October 1st. It will all depend on the timing and content of the patches over the next 5-6 weeks.

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by alzado_77 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:17 pm

....Having two separate versions of the game, developing this new one as a separate product, does raise problems of it's own, though. Inevitably it would result in two separate FoG communities, the old and the new, although some old players might also be members of the new community too, and the old community would likely wither and die in time as new players (and there may be very many of those coming in from the mobile market) join only the new community and the old slowly fades away. It would mean that the old PBEM service would need to be maintained alongside the new, which I presume would incur some cost to Slitherine, with no financial return to support it. I know we've all paid out a lot of money for the original game and add-ons, but how many years of support does that buy us? How many should it buy us? I don't have an answer to that question, but I think it's reasonable not to expect it to be forever.

What about the leagues and the Slitherine Cup? Do Slitherine run two parallel competitions or just the one for the new game? There are costs associated with that too. If all the action is attached to the new game that'll diminish the old community even further.

We should have the choice to play the old or the new, I agree, but that choice does have consequences, and we need to acknowledge that. And we need to acknowledge that Slitherine have to balance their books. Perhaps a compromise might be to charge a small subscription for players who want to retain the old game (if they want to play online) to cover Slitherine's costs, and to make it worth their while to continue with the competitions people might enjoy.

Whether Slitherine have made a mistake with this or not is difficult for me to judge. I suspect that, from a commercial point of view, it's the only way to proceed, and it's a decision which might, in the long run, serve us all better, however painful it might be at the moment.

As an aside, some time ago I bought a game called 'Tigers on the Hunt' when it was first released by Matrix. I paid £40+ for it and when I first played it I was shocked and horrified that the game was almost unplayable. It was a painful and far from pleasurable experience. Like this new version of FoG, it was developed by a single developer, but one who had a full time job and had developed the game in his spare time over 10 years. What he had achieved was remarkable, but it was nowhere near professional enough to be released, let alone with that sort of price tag. Understandably there were a lot of complaints from players who had paid out a lot of money for something that was so inadequate. There was no indication on the Matrix website that this was a game that was half-baked.

On reflection, though, I realised that we are not really dealing with computer games in the traditional sense. If I had paid out that much money for the latest Call of Duty and it was so poorly constructed I would be quite rightly demanding my money back, but games like FoG and Tigers on the Hunt are not sold in their tens of millions, with a new version released every year, demanding even more outlay. These are games that are played by a very small number of people (by comparison) and the gross returns for developers and publishers are tiny by comparison. We're practically in the realm of hobbyist stuff here and I felt I needed to adjust my expectations as a result. If developers can't start to make a return until the game is 'finished' they're at risk of going bust, or they're just not going to develop games of this kind at all. We'll end up with the choice of yet another Call of Duty, Sims, or Minecraft to play. I would rather invest my money and my time with the sorts of games Matrix and Slitherine produce, putting up with the defects and shortfalls and hoping that in time, if they can make a reasonable return, the game will develop and improve.

Do I want a game like this one that I love turned out professionally from day one, with all the features I dream of? Yes. Would I like it to be developed further, with a large and lively community. Yes. Would I like it to cost me less than a tenner? Yes. But I recognise that these things are unrealistic and given the choice, I would prefer the imperfect, slowly improving game of FoG to a highly polished Minecraft. And I honestly believe that that is the realistic choice I am presented with.


Thanks Mike. Yes we did all pay out for all the expansions, anywhere between £150-200. And many of those expansions were nothing more than the addition of colourful new figures and troop types to play with. So I would rule out paying any subscription to Slitherine for the maintenance of the old game.

I'd say anything from six months to one year would be reasonable for maintaining the old FoG, by which time you'd expect the new version to have ironed out its problems. At that point it would be fine to simply let the old game die out naturally.

Tbh I would have much preferred for Slitherine to have charged us £10-15 for the new game and present a polished product rather than the mess we have. I would have paid out the extra gladly if I knew it was instantly playable.
Maybe because I don't purchase many games, I also don't buy the mystique of the "imperfect, slowly improving game" I'm afraid. It doesn't hold people to a standard, it accepts shoddy work. Give me the finished product with only minor glitches, even if I have to pay for it, any day of the week.

Cheers
Nick

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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by MikeMarchant » Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:34 pm

alzado_77 wrote:
Tbh I would have much preferred for Slitherine to have charged us £10-15 for the new game and present a polished product rather than the mess we have. I would have paid out the extra gladly if I knew it was instantly playable.
Maybe because I don't purchase many games, I also don't buy the mystique of the "imperfect, slowly improving game" I'm afraid. It doesn't hold people to a standard, it accepts shoddy work. Give me the finished product with only minor glitches, even if I have to pay for it, any day of the week.

Cheers
Nick
Yes, I'd have been happy to pay for the new version too, as I suspect many other players would have.

I don't mean to suggest there's a mystique in this, just that we're in a niche caught between two ends of the pole. These kinds of games aren't the kind of shallow, simple game that can be knocked up for the mobile market in a few months in a highly polished release, and nor are they the even more highly polished Call of Duty type that have a budget of millions of pounds and a development team, of dozens of people. I am not sure what the economics are for games of this kind, but my fear is that it's just a matter of reality rather than anything else; that we either accept this is the only way to produce games like this or we end up without having games like this to play. I doubt they're great money-spinners for the publishers/developers - although producing an iOS/Android version might make it that and, if so, I would hope that we all benefit from that in the end.

As I say, I don't know for sure that this is the case, but I fear that it probably is. I might want a world with no war (for real), no hunger, no disease, but it's not that world that I live in, although I will continue to try to work towards that world all the same. In the meantime...


Best Wishes

Mike

alzado_77
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Re: My problems with the new edition.

Post by alzado_77 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:45 pm

It's very simple Mike, and nothing to do with wanting a perfect world. You pay your money and you get a workable service or product in return - if it isn't as workable as the one you already have, you keep the old one until it is.

P.S. I don't buy games as a rule, all I have is the old T/T style wargames like FoG, or John Tiller Napoleonics. So please don't straw-man me as a certain type of buyer! :D .... And I'm not interested in games for mobiles...

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