Can the unit files be changed?

GShock112
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 4:44 pm

Can the unit files be changed?

Post by GShock112 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:25 pm

I didn't look yet into the file system. Is there a way to test how the game would behave if I altered the number of movement points of the units (+3 for cavalry, +1 for everyone else) ?

jomni
Sengoku Jidai
Sengoku Jidai
Posts: 1393
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:20 am

Re: Can the unit files be changed?

Post by jomni » Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:20 pm

Good modding policy is to create a new "mod" folder so that you won't be messing with the core files.
Got to Editor and create a clone of 01TenkaFubuCampaign. Change the campaign name and folder name.
Folder will be created in ...\Documents\My Games\SJIDAI

There is a file called squads.csv that you can open using an speadsheet app (better option) or text editor.
Main Japanese-themed one resides in Data folder. While there are alternate squads files for others in the Campaigns folder.
Save that file into your mod folder and edit the file.

This only takes effect on your modified Tenka Fubu campaign.
Do the same for the others.
I suggest you remove NOSKIRMISH from a clone of 1SengokuJidaiCamapaign so that you can play skirmish.

GShock112
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 4:44 pm

Re: Can the unit files be changed?

Post by GShock112 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:14 am

Light guns from 400 to 600
All Cavalry from 900 to 1500
All infantry from 600 to 900

Beginning tests.

I've used this CsvEd freeware application... took me a bit to find out what was the best option to use to modify the right places without touching the others but I see the units are sorted out in a smart way. It took me 5 minutes, that's all. :)

rbodleyscott
Field of Glory 2
Field of Glory 2
Posts: 23047
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:25 pm

Re: Can the unit files be changed?

Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:31 am

GShock112 wrote:Light guns from 400 to 600
All Cavalry from 900 to 1500
All infantry from 600 to 900
Those are the movement speeds (i.e. how fast the model moves on the map) not the maximum movement distances. If you want to alter the maximum move distances, you need to alter the values in the AP column. In open terrain a square costs 4AP to enter orthogonally (except for limbers for which it costs 6).

If you increase the moves, the main side effect will be in the interaction between movement and shooting. For example, if you increase the move of infantry, they will be able to charge from outside arquebus range and take no shooting at all unless the enemy moves forward on their turn (which would mess up a defensive position). Likewise cavalry would be able to charge from outside bow range.

If your main aim is to make light infantry easier to catch, it might be better to reduce their AP to the same as other infantry.
Richard Bodley Scott

Image

GShock112
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 4:44 pm

Re: Can the unit files be changed?

Post by GShock112 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:51 am

No actually my goal is to make cavalry harder to catch by infantry and easier to perform flanking manouvers with. The rest is absolutely perfect.

rbodleyscott
Field of Glory 2
Field of Glory 2
Posts: 23047
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:25 pm

Re: Can the unit files be changed?

Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:08 am

GShock112 wrote:No actually my goal is to make cavalry harder to catch by infantry and easier to perform flanking manouvers with. The rest is absolutely perfect.
Fair enough, but you will alter the balance between cavalry and shooting.

As I say, you need to alter the AP column in the squads file, not the Speed column. The Speed column is entirely cosmetic - it only effects animation speed - altering it will not make cavalry move further.

I have also moved the topic to "Modder's Corner", which is where it really belongs.
Richard Bodley Scott

Image

GShock112
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 4:44 pm

Re: Can the unit files be changed?

Post by GShock112 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:48 am

We know it's all balanced but this is the only problem the currently balanced set of stats has: the cavalry has troubles catching skirmishers and it's so little manouverable it's difficult for it to even carry out a flanking manouver... if you move it from far it will take ages, from close... jammed by ZOC.

The cavalry manouverability would be better with even just 1 or 2 extra APs (you're right how could I not see the speed couldn't be expressed in 400-600-900 factors?) but that needs to have a counterweight in the shooting against cavalry otherwise missile is going to be too weak (easier to catch now).

What's to re-touch in this case (missile vs cavalry accuracy)?

rbodleyscott
Field of Glory 2
Field of Glory 2
Posts: 23047
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:25 pm

Re: Can the unit files be changed?

Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:03 am

GShock112 wrote:We know it's all balanced but this is the only problem the currently balanced set of stats has: the cavalry has troubles catching skirmishers and it's so little manouverable it's difficult for it to even carry out a flanking manouver... if you move it from far it will take ages, from close... jammed by ZOC.

The cavalry manouverability would be better with even just 1 or 2 extra APs (you're right how could I not see the speed couldn't be expressed in 400-600-900 factors?) but that needs to have a counterweight in the shooting against cavalry otherwise missile is going to be too weak (easier to catch now).

What's to re-touch in this case (missile vs cavalry accuracy)?
I don't agree that it is too hard for cavalry to carry out a flanking manoeuvre at present. It isn't a walkover for them to do so (why should it be?), but when they do achieve it it can be devastating as they roll up several enemy units in the pursuit.

If you increased the move distance of cavalry, you would need to increase missile ranges to compensate. Missile ranges are generous already, increasing them would be very unrealistic.

I think is it certainly arguable that light infantry are too hard to catch by cavalry. You can't really logically reduce their normal move, though, it is already the same as warriors.

You would therefore have to alter the scripts to reduce their evade move (or increase the cavalry charge/pursuit move). This would not be a major task, but you would also need to alter the logic re when the light foot decide to stand rather than evade.
Richard Bodley Scott

Image

GShock112
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 4:44 pm

Re: Can the unit files be changed?

Post by GShock112 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:29 am

The problem here is that if you do an about face (180° wheel) the turn of the cavalry is over. The cavalry can barely fall back 1 square ... it is not manouverable as it should be.
This means the infantry will catch it at the next turn so basically the horse can't evade the foot ... and on top of that, the skirmishers do evade cavalry quite easy (the foot evades the horse and not the other way around).

While it is true that the cav is devastating for the flank charges, the campaign system with its difficulty setting allows you at the very best a fight with even numbers. With even numbers is VERY HARD for a cavalry unit that is so hard to manouver and penalyzed by terrain to hit an unprotected flank (4 units can't flank 4 and 4 can't flank 5. You need 5 units to flank 4 but this can hardly ever happen if battle is only triggered when the AI numbers are in favor... so it is the player who's always at disadvantage for the flanking manouvers).

I wouldn't endeavour such a massive modding task but I think some change is mandatory. While it is true you can roll up an entire flank with a good side charge, it is also true that the compact formation of the 1.28 AI will make your cavalry almost certainly lost in the pursuit process.

The battle system is very solid.... it needs just some minor tweaking. The surprises attacks mechanics, the idling with combat that never starts and this about cavalry being too hard to manouver.
And it's really tiny details compared to the rest which is absolutely awesome... I still think the primary concern should be the campaign features but as far as the battle system is concerned, these 3 things are a major plus if they are looked into.

SnuggleBunnies
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Posts: 1153
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:09 am

Re: Can the unit files be changed?

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:40 am

I think the cavalry is fine; after all, it can fall back two spaces, and tends to withdraw after impact with infantry. It's true that it has trouble consistently catching light foot, but it's not a big deal. Their zoc can be ignored anyway, and their firepower isn't enough to be an immediate problem. Getting even one cavalry unit behind the enemy army can lead to a chain rout.

I've been playing exclusively multiplayer for awhile now though, and that could effect the way I see these things.

GShock112
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 4:44 pm

Re: Can the unit files be changed?

Post by GShock112 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:59 pm

It's all true, that's why even a minor change can't be applied without a complete rebalance of several other factors... a task beyond me.
However it's a given fact the CAV can't wheel and go. It's not manouverable... perhaps wheeling costing 0AP altogether? Look at how Teppo turns 180° and still has moves available. It can't be faster than hooves, really.

rbodleyscott
Field of Glory 2
Field of Glory 2
Posts: 23047
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:25 pm

Re: Can the unit files be changed?

Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:12 pm

GShock112 wrote:It's all true, that's why even a minor change can't be applied without a complete rebalance of several other factors... a task beyond me.
However it's a given fact the CAV can't wheel and go. It's not manouverable... perhaps wheeling costing 0AP altogether? Look at how Teppo turns 180° and still has moves available. It can't be faster than hooves, really.
The foot are skirmishers and are not trying to maintain a formation. All each man has to do is turn 180 degrees on the spot.

The horse, however, are trying to maintain formation and this makes a 180 degree turn by a unit of 250 horsemen a lot more complex. They don't all simply go "hiyo silver!" and turn on the spot, they countermarch - and this is preceded by a sequence of orders to ensure that it gets done in some sort of order. This all takes time. The speed of a galloping horse is irrelevant to this - see how fast horses go in dressage tournaments.

It isn't a question of speed, it is a question of the need to maintain a coherent formation - which the skirmishers are not trying to do. Note that horse skirmishers are also allowed by the rules to turn 180 degrees and move.

You are not comparing like with like. Formed horse are more manoeuvrable than formed foot (they can turn 90 degrees and still move 2 squares, whereas formed foot can't move at all after turning 90 degrees).

But skirmishers (foot and horse) don't need to maintain formations so are more more manoeuvrable. (I know the light troops models look like tight formations, but the technology used for the models could not show dispersed formations).

If you make cavalry as manouevrable as light horse, they will have all the benefits of light horse, without the penalty of being crap in close combat.

All this stuff was thought through in the design process. It isn't as it is by accident.
Richard Bodley Scott

Image

GShock112
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 4:44 pm

Re: Can the unit files be changed?

Post by GShock112 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:13 am

Rob nothing you're saying is new to me or wrong as is. I agree 100%.

The cavalry also has the advantage of charging, doing major damage and falling back.
It is much stronger than it should be against spear units charged from the front side.
Also, it's got the evading manouver too.

I have weighted all the capabilities of all the units of the Tenka Fubu campaign (you know I haven't been playing anything else and by now I've accumulated dozens of campaigns and surely more than 100 battles with both sides) and not just the cavalry units.

The problem is that in a turn-based game, if the cavalry is not given the necessary manouverability, it will have extreme difficulty in flanking the enemy and I've made several examples about that: cav reinforcements unable to reach battle before it's over for example. The fundamental beginning of this assessment and balancing process is in the concept of TIME.

If you put a cav unit next to an ashigaru infantry and make them march to the maximum distance, in open terrain, you'll see what I mean.

Imagining the TIME it takes them to do those 4 squares; in that same interval could the ashigaru cover the same distance? So you see it's not just a matter of holding formation (totally agreed) in comparison with the skirmishers but a matter of maneuverability. The cav necessarily needs to wheel faster (and in fact the hoof is faster than the foot). Comparing formation to formation (and not formation to skirmish) is the way to do this.

The unit is supposed to ride far on the flank (can't be close because of ZOC), then turn and converge on the side or behind the enemy unit which is already engaged. It will take many turns to do that maneuver and in the same number of turns a single enemy unit can stop this flanking manouver in a context where the battle is only joined when the AI has sufficient numbers.

Not only that... an infantry unit in command range has extra movement bonus. In this case, unless your cav is a general unit, we're talking of almost the same number of AP, not to mention the cav has a handicap with terrain (in movement but most importantly in combat). All these factors slow down the cavalry with the TIME concept I mentioned above.

You don't have 4 or 5 turns to do the flanking and you never find an exposed flank... unless you are facing an opponent in inferior numbers (but this is virtually impossible in the campaign) or you get a lucky shot through a "reaction move" (pursuit -> hit another unit from the side or back).

This is a combat context but the same is true in a non-combat context, such as the cavalry reinforcement unable to join the ongoing battle in time to make any difference. It takes at least 5 turns to reach the Honjin from the battlefield's edge to the center-rear of the battlefield on the AI side. You know how many times my reinforcement cavalry DID reach it and was routed by a rallied enemy unit that had been routing back towards its honjin? :)

Several factors are interlinked to build the balance. I know it's a difficult task to find a new balance and I also know 2 things:
1) the most important thing to work on is the campaign features.
2) the system is right now BALANCED.
(I suppose you agree with me on the 2) but in my opinion it's right because 2) is perfect that 1) should be given priority)

So I know exactly what I am saying with pushing for the idea of giving cavalry some extra movement speed. I know it's hard to balance the rest of the stats and I know it's also non priority business but I think this move would benefit what I already judged an awesome combat system.

Personally, I think the cav needs to be made more maneuverable, rebalanced with:

Increased casualties vs missiles
weaker against spears' front sides
weaker in melee (in general)

All considerations about the hardship of handling formation are totally agreed but you can already see that the ratio in movement speed between hoof and foot is too little advantageous for the hoof. Just make a foot unit and a hoof unit march straight as far as they can in open ground. Put that turn in the TIME perspective: the difference in marched squares (without any kind of manouver and combat involved) is too little FOR the hoof.

rbodleyscott
Field of Glory 2
Field of Glory 2
Posts: 23047
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:25 pm

Re: Can the unit files be changed?

Post by rbodleyscott » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:47 am

GShock112 wrote:Personally, I think the cav needs to be made more maneuverable
We will have to agree to disagree on this. Cavalry are WAD. If you want to change them you will have to mod the game yourself. Sorry.
Richard Bodley Scott

Image

GShock112
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 4:44 pm

Re: Can the unit files be changed?

Post by GShock112 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:03 pm

It's ok I will do it.
It'll just take some more time but will let you know how it works out.

1) <-- top priority to me.

ErissN6
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 705
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:34 pm
Location: France

Re: Can the unit files be changed?

Post by ErissN6 » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:15 pm

I didn't play a campaign yet, only made skirmishes, but I hardly saw neat differences between infantry and cavalry movement. It would be okay if it was actual heavy cavalry, made to charge ahead even into the front of infantry.
And when the cavalry is at last, in 2nd part of the battle, in good flanking position, it often has become out of command of its general, so the cavalry movement is even worst.
I think some tiny bonus is needed for cavalry, like are given to units the 45° turning:
Maybe if it has made all its movement in none battle reaction nor involvment, then it has a free square bonus, front ahead only and only on flat or down terrain, of movement in the end of its movement.
So we feel it does not lose the 1st half battle in movement only, to then being slowed out-of-command, even when not in combat.
Last edited by ErissN6 on Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

GShock112
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 4:44 pm

Re: Can the unit files be changed?

Post by GShock112 » Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:05 pm

Try 20AP... you'll find the explanations on how to do it in this thread: http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 29&t=73407
I've been playing with it a lot and haven't gone back.

ErissN6
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 705
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:34 pm
Location: France

Re: Can the unit files be changed?

Post by ErissN6 » Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:20 pm

ERISS wrote: if it has made all its movement in none battle reaction nor involvment, then it has a free square bonus, front ahead only and only on flat or down terrain, of movement in the end of its movement.
rbodleyscott wrote:Really 18AP? That is only a +2AP change and won't let them move an extra square, just allow one square move to be diagonal.
rbodleyscott wrote:In open terrain a square costs 4AP to enter orthogonally (except for limbers for which it costs 6).
GShock112 wrote:Try 20AP...
So I think 20 is the perfect AP, if it allows only just a square bonus straight ahead in flat terrain..
16>20: +25%AP, it seems some big but it feels actually the minimum needed, but the maximum needed too.
How to add conditions?: "if it has made all its movement in none battle reaction nor involvment",
so an archer could slow the cavalry, or for the cavalry don't turn easy in battle, to keep the at now good combat balance.
The bonus movement should not be used to make a charge in the very end of extended movement, too, it should only be allowed for strategic movements.

GShock112
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 4:44 pm

Re: Can the unit files be changed?

Post by GShock112 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:09 am

I don't know if you can add a condition, surely rob will explain, still... do not forget that if you charge skirmishers from far you probably aren't gonna catch them... which leaves the cav exposed to be shot or charged in turn. The extra APs are very useful for maneuverability (turning) because they make the charge come from farther not because of distance but because thanks to them you can avoid the zones of control... which is nearly impossible in big battles.

My simulation idea is that those extra APs are extra speed... which means in the same amount of time taken by other units, the cav can move faster and turn faster (not to cover distance but to manouver).

rbodleyscott
Field of Glory 2
Field of Glory 2
Posts: 23047
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:25 pm

Re: Can the unit files be changed?

Post by rbodleyscott » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:39 am

GShock112 wrote:I don't know if you can add a condition, surely rob will explain
I wasn't clear what condition ERISS wanted to add. It could be possible with scripting.
Richard Bodley Scott

Image

Post Reply

Return to “Modders Corner”