COMBAT

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terrys
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COMBAT

Post by terrys » Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:17 pm

COMBAT

1) All bases get 3 Dice at impact. (4 for Elephants and Scythed Chariots)
.....> Elephants only get 3 dice against other elephants

2) Undrilled Impact Foot are upgraded if fighting infantry during the impact phase if the BG is 3 ranks deep
Average count as superior
Poor count as average
Superiors and Elites are not upgraded in this way
.....> To count as 3 ranks deep the 3rd rank must contain at least half the number of bases as there are in the front rank.
.....> They are not upgraded against ANY opponent during a phase in which they are attacked in the flank or rear, or during the melee phase.

3) A single +POA in combat becomes a 3 vs. 4 dice roll (rather than 4 vs. 5)
To-Hit scores therefore become:
++ POA ............. 3 vs 5
+ POA .............. 3 vs 4
No POa ............. 4 vs 4
- POA ............... 4 vs 3
-- POA .............. 5 vs 3

4) Lch get a +POA against foot at impact (in addition to the POA for fighting MF in the open).
.....> They are not shock troops

5) Superior and elite troops cannot have their combat dice upgraded by a TC.
.....> They can be upgraded by an FC or an IC
.....> This includes impact foot upgraded to superiors at impact as in (2) above

6) Re-rolls in combat are now only allowed as follows:
a) Re-roll 1's if BETTER quality than your opponent
b) Re-roll 1's and 2's if at least 2 BETTER than your opponent
.....> Non-active player decides first whether or not his general will fight in combat
.....> Poor troops never re-roll 6's in combat - but may upgrade their opponents re-roll instead.

philqw78
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Re: COMBAT

Post by philqw78 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:24 pm

What have yo done to stop the gamey use of columns. With the above changes a column of LH will get 2 v 2 dice if charging disrupted battle troops
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

terrys
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Re: COMBAT

Post by terrys » Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:55 pm

What have yo done to stop the gamey use of columns. With the above changes a column of LH will get 2 v 2 dice if charging disrupted battle troops
Only if they can pass a CMT. Even so they'll only be on evens, with a likelihood of being 2 dice vs 3 and a POA down in melee.
I'm quite happy for LH to charge my disrupted battle troops - even in column.

I have noticed that LH will now get 2 dice when charging battle troops and only hit with 1 base. It remains to be seen whether or not this will cause a problem. That's what Beta testing's for....

ChrisTofalos
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Re: COMBAT

Post by ChrisTofalos » Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:07 am

All bases get 3 Dice at impact. (4 for Elephants and Scythed Chariots)
.....> Elephants only get 3 dice against other elephants
I like this idea but why not extend it to melee as well? More dice = more casualties = (hopefully) quicker games.

But it does look like elephants are going to be more vulnerable (more dice against them and, proportionally, less for them). Tinkering with elephant BG sizes might cause more problems than it solves (will the army calculation spreadsheets need changing?). What about a +2 modifier on the death roll, instead of the current +1?

Chris

terrys
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Re: COMBAT

Post by terrys » Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:14 am

I like this idea but why not extend it to melee as well? More dice = more casualties = (hopefully) quicker games.

But it does look like elephants are going to be more vulnerable (more dice against them and, proportionally, less for them). Tinkering with elephant BG sizes might cause more problems than it solves (will the army calculation spreadsheets need changing?). What about a +2 modifier on the death roll, instead of the current +1?
extending it to combat is more complicated - since both the front 2 ranks count.
We have an increased attrition in melee anyway - if one side is a POA down (hitting on 3's and 4's instead of 4's and 5's).
Only having the extra dice at impact also has an added advantage of proportionately reducing the value of armour - which is slightly overrated at the moment.

The effect on elephants will need more testing. They are better against mounted (8 vs 4 instead of 4 vs 3 for a 2-base frontage). Against infantry they are slightly worse (8 vs 6 instead of 6 vs 4) but it's less likely that the foot will get re-rolls.

ChrisTofalos
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Re: COMBAT

Post by ChrisTofalos » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:29 am

They are better against mounted (8 vs 4 instead of 4 vs 3 for a 2-base frontage). Against infantry they are slightly worse (8 vs 6 instead of 6 vs 4)...
It's not the advantages of extra dice for the elephants that worries me but the extra dice against. Enthusiastic users of elephants will be all too familiar with losing the entire BG on the dreaded death roll of a one, but causing more casualties on them is bound to make them even more fragile.

Take your points about extra dice in melee, though...

Chris

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Re: COMBAT

Post by hazelbark » Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:16 pm

philqw78 wrote:What have yo done to stop the gamey use of columns. With the above changes a column of LH will get 2 v 2 dice if charging disrupted battle troops
Columns should just be banned. They were not really historical. cue weird one off justifications that are in MM.
Obviously you need an exception for 2 base units.

Any "column" should automatically drop a level if hit at impact. Even if it charges.

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Re: COMBAT

Post by hazelbark » Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:19 pm

terrys wrote:COMBAT
4) Lch get a +POA against foot at impact (in addition to the POA for fighting MF in the open).
.....> They are not shock troops
OK, They need to be made more viable and this does this.

Still need to make HCH better for out of period. And does the LCH POA make them the same as HCH in period vs foot?
Give HCH equal impact POA as KN. Sure there are "technological" reasons not to but since we have no historical examples, make the troop type more viable.

terrys
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Re: COMBAT

Post by terrys » Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:56 pm

Still need to make HCH better for out of period. And does the LCH POA make them the same as HCH in period vs foot?
Only at impact - They'll still be pretty poor in melee. It makes you use them correctly - weakening them with shooting before you charge.
Give HCH equal impact POA as KN. Sure there are "technological" reasons not to but since we have no historical examples, make the troop type more viable.
> HcH are 3 points less than HA knights.
> They are -POA at impact.
> They can (mostly) shoot as superiors
Given these factors I'd say they are good value at the moment.
The biggest problem that HcH chariot armies face is that their support troops are often quite poor.
I have seen them used in 'open' competitions and do quite well - although only in Indian and Assyrian armies.

Three
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Re: COMBAT

Post by Three » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:13 am

terrys wrote:
Still need to make HCH better for out of period. And does the LCH POA make them the same as HCH in period vs foot?
Only at impact - They'll still be pretty poor in melee. It makes you use them correctly - weakening them with shooting before you charge.
Give HCH equal impact POA as KN. Sure there are "technological" reasons not to but since we have no historical examples, make the troop type more viable.
> HcH are 3 points less than HA knights.
> They are -POA at impact.
> They can (mostly) shoot as superiors
Given these factors I'd say they are good value at the moment.
The biggest problem that HcH chariot armies face is that their support troops are often quite poor.
I have seen them used in 'open' competitions and do quite well - although only in Indian and Assyrian armies.
Will you allow LCh with Light Spear to have Javelin shooting ability? I have no idea about what happened in Biblical times, but Julius Caesar reports Celtic Chariots using missiles to break up their enemy (unless this has been debunked?).

terrys
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Re: COMBAT

Post by terrys » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:02 am

Will you allow LCh with Light Spear to have Javelin shooting ability? I have no idea about what happened in Biblical times, but Julius Caesar reports Celtic Chariots using missiles to break up their enemy (unless this has been debunked?).
Not at the moment.
Javelin/Spear armed charioteers tended to get off their chariots to do the fighting and probably also to throw their javelins.
They would then remount and ride away if they felt threatened.
There's no evidence that they carried a large amount of javelins (particularly Ancient British) so couldn't sustain a missile fight for very long.
We therefore still treat them the same as spear/javelin cavalry.
Given that they're 2 points less than LCh I think that having an extra POA at impact (against some opponents) AND being able to fire would be too much of an advantage.

philqw78
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Re: COMBAT

Post by philqw78 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:20 am

What are the some opponents
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

terrys
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Re: COMBAT

Post by terrys » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:18 pm

What are the some opponents
Anyone they are on an equal POA with.
HF other than pikes and HW.
Bow-armed Chariots and cavalry.

philqw78
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Re: COMBAT

Post by philqw78 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:28 pm

So a light chariot with Bow will will be + in impact against a HCh armed with bows
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

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Re: COMBAT

Post by hazelbark » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:08 pm

philqw78 wrote:So a light chariot with Bow will will be + in impact against a HCh armed with bows
I don't see that. I saw LCH get a POA against foot. Therefore they will be down to HCH and the Light spear won't matter. correct?

terrys
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Re: COMBAT

Post by terrys » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:12 pm

I don't see that. I saw LCH get a POA against foot. Therefore they will be down to HCH and the Light spear won't matter. correct?

True - I should have said:
HF other than pikes and HW.
Bow-armed Light Chariots and cavalry.

philqw78
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Re: COMBAT

Post by philqw78 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:42 pm

hazelbark wrote:
philqw78 wrote:So a light chariot with Bow will will be + in impact against a HCh armed with bows
I don't see that. I saw LCH get a POA against foot. Therefore they will be down to HCH and the Light spear won't matter. correct?
You didn't look Dan
Anyone they are on an equal POA with.
HF other than pikes and HW.
Bow-armed Chariots and cavalry.
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

Three
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Re: COMBAT

Post by Three » Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:02 pm

Point 5 says that only FCs and ICs can upgrade combat dice.

Point 6 says that rerolls in combat are only allowed if you are better quality than your opponent.

Does this mean that the only way to get rerolls is to attach a General (FC or IC) to a unit that is fighting an enemy of inferior status? So, for example, Superior legion fighting superior Galatian Warriors, neither get any rerolls, even if a general (FC or IC) is attached, because they are the same status, but if Average Legion fighting Superior Galatians, the Galatians only get a reroll if there is a FC or IC attached or that since the Galatians are superior, they get the reroll of 1s because of their higher status and the attached general has no further effect on the combat rolls?

In other words, any troops fighting any troops of the same status will never get any combat rerolls?

terrys
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Re: COMBAT

Post by terrys » Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:47 pm

In other words, any troops fighting any troops of the same status will never get any combat re-rolls?
I think you are correct...

but to put it clearly:
Generals upgrade the status of troops before you assess whether or not they are BETTER quality than their opponents.
So:
Elites are equal to Superiors with a general
Superiors are equal to average with a general
Average are equal to poor with a general.
None of the above get a re-roll when fighting each other

So your example:
Superior legion fighting superior Galatian Warriors, neither get any re-rolls, even if a general (FC or IC) is attached, because they are the same status,
is incorrect because the side with an attached FC or IC will be fighting as Elites.

Three
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Re: COMBAT

Post by Three » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:54 am

Ok, thanks, the clarification helps understand the intent.

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