Wheeling in a confined space

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philqw78
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Post by philqw78 » Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:04 pm

But large groups wheel out of the centre of the line when trooping the colour at horse guards, so it can be done.

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Post by batesmotel » Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:31 pm

hammy wrote:
batesmotel wrote:
hammy wrote: ...

I am not saying that I agree totally with the rule, just what the rule is.

That said I have never had a situation where this rule has restricted my options.
I see a mention of updating the FAQ with a ruling on this in the other thread but didn't find anything in the FAQ. Was the discussion never held or were the current rules decided to be clear enough to not require a clarification?
I believe that the rules were considered to be clear as the issue is from players of another game where there was a rule that specifically alows this action. Much like there is (I think) no rule in FoG allowing premeasuring which is prohibited by a rule in other games.
Given this is a second long thread on the topic, it might still be worthwhile adding it to the FAQ. In general FAQs contain answers to questions that come up with some frequency whether or not they are also answered elsewhere.

And if pre-measuring isn't covered one way or the other in the rules, then it would be a good candidate for clarification as well. Everyone I've played with so far seems to have agreed that pre-measuring is allowed, but other rules vary enough on this that a clear statement one way or the other would be appropriate.

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Post by gozerius » Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:37 pm

Having performed a wheel out of line on many occasions in my military career, (August is a lovely time for Change of Command ceremonies in Georgia) I can assure you that the rear ranks do not shift laterally into the adjacent unit. Each man in file follows the man in front of him through the wheeling arc, adjusting his stride to maintain proper position within the formation. When the desired direction has been achieved, the unit adjusts to it's proper rectangular shape.

philqw78
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Post by philqw78 » Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:05 pm

I agree with gozerius. It can certainly be done in real life.

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Post by rbodleyscott » Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:45 pm

gozerius wrote:Having performed a wheel out of line on many occasions in my military career, I can assure you that the rear ranks do not shift laterally into the adjacent unit. Each man in file follows the man in front of him through the wheeling arc, adjusting his stride to maintain proper position within the formation. When the desired direction has been achieved, the unit adjusts to it's proper rectangular shape.
Phrased it like that, it becomes immediately obvious just how ludicrous is the idea that they would impinge on the adjacent unit.

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Post by lawrenceg » Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:41 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
gozerius wrote:Having performed a wheel out of line on many occasions in my military career, I can assure you that the rear ranks do not shift laterally into the adjacent unit. Each man in file follows the man in front of him through the wheeling arc, adjusting his stride to maintain proper position within the formation. When the desired direction has been achieved, the unit adjusts to it's proper rectangular shape.
Phrased it like that, it becomes immediately obvious just how ludicrous is the idea that they would impinge on the adjacent unit.
So, for the avoidance of doubt, the rules currently do NOT allow you to wheel out of line, but this is ludicrous, and in due course an erratum will be issued to allow it?
Lawrence Greaves

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Post by rbodleyscott » Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:18 am

lawrenceg wrote:
rbodleyscott wrote:
gozerius wrote:Having performed a wheel out of line on many occasions in my military career, I can assure you that the rear ranks do not shift laterally into the adjacent unit. Each man in file follows the man in front of him through the wheeling arc, adjusting his stride to maintain proper position within the formation. When the desired direction has been achieved, the unit adjusts to it's proper rectangular shape.
Phrased it like that, it becomes immediately obvious just how ludicrous is the idea that they would impinge on the adjacent unit.
So, for the avoidance of doubt, the rules currently do NOT allow you to wheel out of line, but this is ludicrous, and in due course an erratum will be issued to allow it?
The rules don't say that troops can't wheel out of line. They are, in fact, completely silent on the subject.

The rules say they can't interpenetrate troops they can't interpenetrate. However, as Phil and Gozerius have pointed out, troops wheeling out of line don't impinge on the unit next to them, because each man in the end file does not start wheeling until he reaches the original front of the formation. Hence no interpenetration is in fact required.

Sure, you can argue that they do interpenetrate, because the troops are on rigid rectangular bases, but that would be silly, wouldn't it - because we know that wheeling troops don't stay in a rectangular formation, and in any case, the troops only fill a fraction of the base depth anyway.

I don't really see a problem as long as the BG clears the adjacent BG at the end of the move. (And that is only because it would cause issues to have BGs overlapping at the end of a move).

A clarification would seem more appropriate than an erratum. (Assuming that Simon and Terry agree).

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Post by SirGarnet » Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:56 am

If you are going for a clarification, would it suffice to say that for purposes of interpenetration and entering restricted areas look at the path the front edge of the BG takes and the final position of the entire BG clearing enemy or restricted areas, not the line of measurement of a wheel or a BG's bases swinging out in wheeling?

This is based on seeing that the wheel is measured on the chord of the arc that the front line notionally swings through as it rotates.

philqw78
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Post by philqw78 » Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:14 am

Phrased it like that, it becomes immediately obvious just how ludicrous is the idea that they would impinge on the adjacent unit.
All that time on thew square wasn't wasted then. Yippee!

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Post by shall » Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:10 pm

Must admit I have wheeled out of a line of BGs on many occasions :shock: .... course that doesn't mean its allowed!! :?:

Seriously though, the rules neither forbid nor allow it explicitly.

Certainly you cannot end your move sitting atop another base, and you have to have room to do a turn (this is specified). For a wheel it is self-evident that you can't take your front edge through anything else as this is an interpenetration (unless its a legal one of course).

I have always allowed wheeling out of line for 3 reasons:

1. It is done in practice exactly as described in previous posts by some drill square experts.
2. The base depths in wargaming are very artificial and sized just to match our figures, not reality. For example, if a 40mm base of Auxilia is about 80yds say then the depth would be 20yds to scale - but 4 ranks of troops is more likely 3-5yds deep. So in most cases these bases should be very thin cf what we use.
3. Not to do so creates a difference in play driven by base depths - so 25mm chariots will have huge problems vs 6mm HF.

Perhaps we should issue a clarry that a side edge "passing through" a BG as part of a wheel is allowed, and is not considered to be interpenetration (that being a front edge doing so). Such a wheel is allowed as long as the end position is clear of any bases.

So you can wheel out of a line as long as you go far enough to clear the bases of your adjacent BGs.

Does such a clarry create any unwelcome side effects (it would allow a few wheels in situations where the front width can pass even though the diagonal may not fit but I doubt that matters much)? Thoughts on that WIP ?

Si
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Post by dave_r » Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:28 pm

Presumably the above would only be allowed for Friendly BG's and not Enemy BG's? i.e. if you are in side-edge to side-edge contact with an enemy BG (not an uncommon occurence) would it be possible to wheel away?

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Post by BrianC » Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:39 pm

shall wrote:Must admit I have wheeled out of a line of BGs on many occasions :shock: .... course that doesn't mean its allowed!! :?:

Seriously though, the rules neither forbid nor allow it explicitly.

Certainly you cannot end your move sitting atop another base, and you have to have room to do a turn (this is specified). For a wheel it is self-evident that you can't take your front edge through anything else as this is an interpenetration (unless its a legal one of course).

I have always allowed wheeling out of line for 3 reasons:

1. It is done in practice exactly as described in previous posts by some drill square experts.
2. The base depths in wargaming are very artificial and sized just to match our figures, not reality. For example, if a 40mm base of Auxilia is about 80yds say then the depth would be 20yds to scale - but 4 ranks of troops is more likely 3-5yds deep. So in most cases these bases should be very thin cf what we use.
3. Not to do so creates a difference in play driven by base depths - so 25mm chariots will have huge problems vs 6mm HF.

Perhaps we should issue a clarry that a side edge "passing through" a BG as part of a wheel is allowed, and is not considered to be interpenetration (that being a front edge doing so). Such a wheel is allowed as long as the end position is clear of any bases.

So you can wheel out of a line as long as you go far enough to clear the bases of your adjacent BGs.

Does such a clarry create any unwelcome side effects (it would allow a few wheels in situations where the front width can pass even though the diagonal may not fit but I doubt that matters much)? Thoughts on that WIP ?

Si
Nice reply Si. Another ex military type who has done his share of drill, I like your rationale about using the front edge of a BG, that makes a lot of sense. The rear ranks who are wheeling always take larger steps and the inner ranks much smaller. Not being a tall guy I remember having to take almost leaps to stay in step :D . And especially if you are drilled you know enough to move around something then get back into formation as required. I also think its ok since when you wheel you measure a straight line rather than measure the arc, why would you not do the same during the move. There is a little fudge factor in there IMO.

Brian

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Post by shall » Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:42 pm

Presumably the above would only be allowed for Friendly BG's and not Enemy BG's? i.e. if you are in side-edge to side-edge contact with an enemy BG (not an uncommon occurence) would it be possible to wheel away?
Yes I think one would have to limit it to friendlies for practical reasons or something silly may come up

Si
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Post by babyshark » Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:40 pm

shall wrote:Perhaps we should issue a clarry that a side edge "passing through" a BG as part of a wheel is allowed, and is not considered to be interpenetration (that being a front edge doing so). Such a wheel is allowed as long as the end position is clear of any bases.

So you can wheel out of a line as long as you go far enough to clear the bases of your adjacent BGs.

Does such a clarry create any unwelcome side effects (it would allow a few wheels in situations where the front width can pass even though the diagonal may not fit but I doubt that matters much)? Thoughts on that WIP ?

Si
I think that is an excellent idea, particularly with the exception, mentioned in other posts, that it only applies to friendly BGs.

Marc

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