Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Order of Battle is a series of operational WW2 games starting with the Pacific War and then on to Europe!

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GabeKnight
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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by GabeKnight » Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:32 am

CoolDTA wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:39 pm
For me the southern attack by the Americans and Free French didn't happen, because they were... well, dead. :twisted: A pre-emptive attack [...]
:lol: :lol: Nice.

You're right, that's usually my way to go at it, too... :lol:

But Mojko's and Andy's tactics and approaches look very solid to me, too. Sometimes you just need to save money and then it's best to sit on your ass and defend. And sometimes such cockiness and over-confidence will really lead to an easier victory. And sometimes you just have enough RP to spare and you want some action and you don't care.
Many choices, many possibilities to achieve victory - versatility is one of the reasons we love this game, right? :D

CoolDTA
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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by CoolDTA » Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:13 pm

GabeKnight wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:32 am
Many choices, many possibilities to achieve victory - versatility is one of the reasons we love this game, right? :D
Definitely. :)

I have played this DLC more defensively than the previous ones, so no tabulae rasae for me. The thing is that it is a bit faster and imo easier to play like that. There is also not much incentive to go and hunt all the enemy units because 1) you are likely to lose strenght points and thus resources, 2) 5-star units don't get more 5-star when they damage enemies, 3) you don't get even a small reward (cf. Panzer Corps in which all towns give you at least a little bit of prestige). There is only the inner completionist yelling do it - you know you want to. :D But for me and OoB it has not been enough any longer... :|

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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by Andy2012 » Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:36 pm

Alright, I have fled from Paris and the French once again rule their country (with only the smallest help from the US :wink: ). This mission is a bit ahistorical, but I dont mind as long as it is fun. :D
I think this is once again pretty much straightforward: Mine the southern approaches to Rouen, pull back from Le Havre. Keep 1-2 inf or recon behind Paris to hunt the French Resistance (membership suddenly picked up, peaking in '46. :wink: Yes, I'll stop now. :mrgreen: ) Mining the southern approaches to Paris is also very effective. Remember to not refuel or repair your jets near Paris or Rouen, use the airstrips further north.
Once again, I relied on Nebelwerfers and my trusty Jadgpanthers as the backbone of my defense. Hunting the SAS in the north near the coast is also easy. Once you see them, gang up with recon units. Focus your jets in the south to down US planes. If possible, use the additional army cp to deploy a Wirbelwind AA. They are very effective against fighters. As soon as you get the message, fall back towards Amiens.
(Side question: Is there any way to speed up AI turns? I am usually done in 2 minutes shuffling my core around, but the large AI armies kind of take forever...)
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terminator
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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by terminator » Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:39 pm

The Tanks in the Outcome Event are old models, we would imagine in 1940.

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CoolDTA
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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by CoolDTA » Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:10 pm

terminator wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:39 pm
The Tanks in the Outcome Event are old models, we would imagine in 1940.
That they are. Your image is much more appropriate.

Mojko
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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by Mojko » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:34 pm

Finished Market garden and I must say this was the most intimidating scenario yet. 3 separate battle fronts? Low supply cap? No Air support? I had to restart a couple of times as the initial position of your troops matter VERY much. With good troop positions, this scenario is actually super easy. Here are my recommendations.

- Heavy artillery, Elite infantry and lot of Engineers is the key
- remove transport from your infantry to free up supply
- do not deploy any AA as there is one aux AA in the south and that's all you need initially
- all aux units can be saved with the exception of one AT gun in the center, two useless trucks and one bautruppe

North paradrop group

- deploy 4x 17 K18 south of the enemy
- do not deploy any infantry to the North east, it's the most guarded approach, instead deploy your infantry east and south
- there is one aux infantry so just move it around to the north so it link with your eastern forces
- take two 10CP tiles as these are lightly guarded, avoid killing any enemy units, damage them only instead, this will put your enemy under supply quickly
- note that enemy paratroopers have fuel, so they will run out of supply later
- two enemy paradrops will happen and the key is to have a nice line of units close together so you don't get separated
- make sure to hit all freshly deployed paratroopers with your artillery as they suffered efficiency from their landing, but will recover on the next turn if you don't hit them

Center paradrop group

- only deploy two elite infantry units here (no engineers)
- on first turn you need to push the enemy out of the city tile which provides 20CP
- this can be done like this:
- first elite infantry will push out enemy recon unit
- second elite infantry is free to attack the city
- before the attack on the city tile attack the enemy infantry with two hits from your artillery
- take the city, recover damaged aux infantry and move in second aux infantry from the east
- your goal here is to only hold the city tile with your infantry and support it by the two aux infantries
- make sure the aux AT gun is in the open and in range of enemy artillery
- this will draw all incoming artillery fire to the useless AT gun and will not weaken your infantry units
- keep this position like this until the situation in the north is under control
- this will free up your second elite infantry to help up with the situation in the north

Southern paradrop

- deploy 3x 17 K18
- elite infantry (no engineers)
- deploy two panther tanks (one west one east), other tanks are useless as they are too slow and will get outflanked too easily
- advance your panther tanks and provide cover for the retreating aux units
- aux AT run to the east should retreat to the north east
- aux heavy inf should retreat to the north
- with heavy artillery support you should be able to break the paradrop here quite easily as they are not really entrenched yet
- ignore enemy recon unit in the paradrop area as it's not a threat
- form two strong points: one in the big city and one near the eastern aux heavy infantry
- there is an aux AT gun in the center with no transport which can also be saved, just head north and use your tank to cover it
- you can also use your mobile AA to block enemy movement to save the AT gun
- move the recon unit in the east to the center and provide support where needed
- move in all remaining aux units forward to support the frontline


Reinforcements

1st round

- tank (south) and infantry (north)

2nd round

- 2 Flak 88 in the south and 1 engineers in the north

3rd round

- 4 x Me 262 (deploy north and intercept the enemy paradrop)


You should have situation under control around turn 10, counter attack in the south and wipe out all enemy units on the map before turn 20. I had a lot of fun on this one :D .
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bebro
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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by bebro » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:20 am

Hey, thx for the feedback, interesting read.

When I think how ppl like to deploy several pieces of heavy arty I'm beginning to wonder if the bigger calibers (like, say above 120-150mm and above) of towed guns should get slightly higher CP requirements. A simple +1 would mean deploying 3 K18 (or comparable non-German guns) would cost people one inf.

Now, I'm confident player will still find ways to wipe maps. Also to be clear atm this is just a wild idea of mine, nothing official.

hrafnkolbrandr
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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by hrafnkolbrandr » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:27 am

bebro wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:20 am
Hey, thx for the feedback, interesting read.

When I think how ppl like to deploy several pieces of heavy arty I'm beginning to wonder if the bigger calibers (like, say above 120-150mm and above) of towed guns should get slightly higher CP requirements. A simple +1 would mean deploying 3 K18 (or comparable non-German guns) would cost people one inf.

Now, I'm confident player will still find ways to wipe maps. Also to be clear atm this is just a wild idea of mine, nothing official.
Don't you dare! ;)

Remember seriously, we pay through the nose for those guns and they are very vulnerable if not protected. If an IL-2 or a SU-122/152 gets a shot on one, it can cost us two to three infantry units to repair.

CoolDTA
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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by CoolDTA » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:11 am

bebro wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:20 am
When I think how ppl like to deploy several pieces of heavy arty I'm beginning to wonder if the bigger calibers (like, say above 120-150mm and above) of towed guns should get slightly higher CP requirements. A simple +1 would mean deploying 3 K18 (or comparable non-German guns) would cost people one inf.
Imo the best and most realistic way is that the player cannot buy 17 cm K 18s at all. You could have one - and only one - as a reward by fulfilling a secondary objective in some appropriate scenario and that's it. Maybe two if you use core transfer (one in Panzerkrieg, another in Endsieg).

13obo
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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by 13obo » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:23 pm

I agree completely that the k18 heavy artillery is imbalanced at the moment exactly because of its low CP cost. The hummel is the other artillery on par of usefulness to the k18 (stronger and more mobile but slightly less damage), and it has 5 CP cost.

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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by Narwhal » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:30 pm

Another way would be to make super heavy artillery lose 2 energy point by shoot, which would represent how complex those were to reload.

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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by Andy2012 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:40 pm

I guess that if OoB will publish at least two more DLCs, some rebalancing is in order. I for one have noticed that my strategy of 'regular reinforcements only' has only affected my inf units. Most of them are 0,5-1,5 stars now. Losing one doesnt bother me at all, a new one is easily bought from my bottomless stash of credits and is actually better than my veterans. Put shortly, maybe we need a thoroughly tested rebalancing patch, which will only apply to next DLCs... I know this is a huge task and maybe not worth the time spent, but I feel that there are kinks to even out. Dont get me wrong, I am still having a ton of fun playing...

kondi754
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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by kondi754 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:43 pm

Considering that OoB is a game on an operational scale, I think that there should be no possibility of buying specific equipment at all :twisted:
We should buy large operational units - 1 inf unit should be infantry division 1 inf unit + truck - inf motorised division, heavy inf (only with halftracks) - grenadier division, 1 tank unit - panzer division, 1 heavy artillery unit - independent brigade or artillery division at the corps or army level, 1 air unit - regiment, division , wing or tactical group of fighter, assault/close combat support aircraft or bomber
it is pointless to buy, for example, light or medium artillery because it was the most common part of every division, it only featured heavy artillery as a support for corps or army, similarly to heavy anti-aircraft artillery
Of course, this would require a change of statistics, the infantry and armored/panzer divisions should have some antiaircraft and anti-tank defense factors itself
Probably there would be no AT equipment to buy at all, because AT units existed only inside larger operational units
(In a situation when the new equipment would be available - eg. new Panther instead of Pz IV or Fw 190 instead of Bf 109, the player could re-equip his units with this new equipment but at the right price, quite high, so that different types of equipment co-exist on the front - older and newer - as it was in reality)
So if anybody cares about realism, that's how the whole mechanism should look :wink: 8)

GabeKnight
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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by GabeKnight » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:52 pm

bebro wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:20 am
When I think how ppl like to deploy several pieces of heavy arty I'm beginning to wonder if the bigger calibers (like, say above 120-150mm and above) of towed guns should get slightly higher CP requirements. A simple +1 would mean deploying 3 K18 (or comparable non-German guns) would cost people one inf.
I'd also agree here. One more CP for the heavy arty wouldn't hurt. And I would even go that far to give the 17cm a +2 CP increase. The huge range makes this unit incredibly effective without having to fear any counter-battery fire, because it's out of range of everything the opposition might have. Almost every other artillery unit in the game is 5-hex ranged (or less). The introduction of the 8(!)-hex 17cm K18 unit into my unit roster made positioning and use of cover to set up my arty postition (without the enemy noticing and firing back) totally obsolete.

Just recently, I've been playing with a mod that already had those changes implemented (and more) and you can trust me here, it wouldn't unbalance nothing** (even with the older DLCs) if you'd increase the CP costs with the heavy pieces. The positive effect was a more diversified "arty core".

EDIT: **other than the supply requirement of enemy units, that is. It could put the enemy with some older, existing maps into "unwanted" under-supply.

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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by Mojko » Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:41 pm

bebro wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:20 am
Hey, thx for the feedback, interesting read.

When I think how ppl like to deploy several pieces of heavy arty I'm beginning to wonder if the bigger calibers (like, say above 120-150mm and above) of towed guns should get slightly higher CP requirements. A simple +1 would mean deploying 3 K18 (or comparable non-German guns) would cost people one inf.

Now, I'm confident player will still find ways to wipe maps. Also to be clear atm this is just a wild idea of mine, nothing official.
I agree that changing the CP requirements on artillery is a good way to go. Currently majority of towed artillery have the same CP requirement which is a problem. I think the artillery needs a similar treatment as tanks, i.e. having a wider range of CPs. I suggest following changes:

- lower light towed artillery units to 2CPs (some are already on 2, but I think more units belong to this category, maybe even consider 1 CP for super light ones as you will need to pay 1 extra CP for transport anyway)
- keep medium towed artillery at 3CPs
- increase heavy towed artillery units to 4CPs
- revisit CP requirements of mobile artillery as well as I personally think that lot of these are overpriced in terms of CPs

There were some other interesting ideas proposed in this thread, but I would suggest to keep things as simple as possible. The only thing I would consider is adding "fire support" trait to some very light artillery types.
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terminator
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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by terminator » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:45 am

kondi754 wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:43 pm
Considering that OoB is a game on an operational scale, I think that there should be no possibility of buying specific equipment at all :twisted:
We should buy large operational units - 1 inf unit should be infantry division 1 inf unit + truck - inf motorised division, heavy inf (only with halftracks) - grenadier division, 1 tank unit - panzer division, 1 heavy artillery unit - independent brigade or artillery division at the corps or army level, 1 air unit - regiment, division , wing or tactical group of fighter, assault/close combat support aircraft or bomber
it is pointless to buy, for example, light or medium artillery because it was the most common part of every division, it only featured heavy artillery as a support for corps or army, similarly to heavy anti-aircraft artillery
Of course, this would require a change of statistics, the infantry and armored/panzer divisions should have some antiaircraft and anti-tank defense factors itself
Probably there would be no AT equipment to buy at all, because AT units existed only inside larger operational units
(In a situation when the new equipment would be available - eg. new Panther instead of Pz IV or Fw 190 instead of Bf 109, the player could re-equip his units with this new equipment but at the right price, quite high, so that different types of equipment co-exist on the front - older and newer - as it was in reality)
So if anybody cares about realism, that's how the whole mechanism should look :wink: 8)
I prefer strategy games on a smaller scale like "Close Combat Series" with different types of units, each with different characteristics.
Note that in this game (Close Combat) there is also a strategic map :

stalingradfinalsmall.gif
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bebro
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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by bebro » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:03 pm

Mojko wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:41 pm
- lower light towed artillery units to 2CPs (some are already on 2, but I think more units belong to this category, maybe even consider 1 CP for super light ones as you will need to pay 1 extra CP for transport anyway)
- keep medium towed artillery at 3CPs
- increase heavy towed artillery units to 4CPs
- revisit CP requirements of mobile artillery as well as I personally think that lot of these are overpriced in terms of CPs
IIRC there are few examples of light arty having 2 CP in the game - we could certainly see if there are others that should get the same value.

I'd be careful with 1 CP only - very light arty can be quite useful in early war settings and 1 CP only could easily invite players to spam those like mad :)

re mobile - their big plus is the move/shoot ability, something which towed does not have if relying on extra TP. So in this regard a somewhat higher requirement (compared to towed) seems ok to me.

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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by jakemon » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:51 pm

terminator wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:45 am
I prefer strategy games on a smaller scale like "Close Combat Series" with different types of units, each with different characteristics.
Note that in this game (Close Combat) there is also a strategic map :
Pardon the off topic question, but is that CC Strategic Map from a mod? With two units on some of the mini-maps, it must be using the CC6 or CC7 engine. CC is also one of my favorite tactical series, but I don't recognize the Rattenkrieg campaign...

terminator
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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by terminator » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:51 am

jakemon wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:51 pm
terminator wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:45 am
I prefer strategy games on a smaller scale like "Close Combat Series" with different types of units, each with different characteristics.
Note that in this game (Close Combat) there is also a strategic map :
Pardon the off topic question, but is that CC Strategic Map from a mod? With two units on some of the mini-maps, it must be using the CC6 or CC7 engine. CC is also one of my favorite tactical series, but I don't recognize the Rattenkrieg campaign...
Yes, it's a mod, seems to be CC5 Stalingrad found on the site : http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/index.php

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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by hrafnkolbrandr » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:29 pm

Don't balance this game and CP costs around your best players....

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