Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Order of Battle is a series of operational WW2 games starting with the Pacific War and then on to Europe!

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Admiral_Horthy
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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by Admiral_Horthy » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:41 pm

RE: Artillery.

I support the light artillery changes.

Mobile arty should get the Move AFTER shoot trait, because that's what they did. Fire then change position. Shoot after move is technically impossible for indirect shooting artillery. It is for assault guns (Stug in direct mode) and direct firing guns like inf-guns and field guns.

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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by kverdon » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:29 am

Thanks for the suggestion to employ Engineer units in the Falaise/Paris Scenarios. It was brilliant. In my second playthrough I used 2-3 Engineer units to blow key bridges and lay some minefields. It worked like a charm to slow the Amis down. In my first playthrough I entered the Market Garden Scenario with 466 RP after repairing all my units. On this playthrough I'm at 1522. The 10rp for blowing a bridge can return a couple of hundred RP in repairs.

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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by bebro » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:41 am

hrafnkolbrandr wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:29 pm
Don't balance this game and CP costs around your best players....
Good point, and I for one don't intend to go that far that it becomes outright impossible to field a certain unit (unless we are talking extremely rare types, that might indeed be given as unique only). The basic approach is still that there is a price tag on stronger units, and 'price' in OOB can be (more) RP, CP, or both.

I don't see major problem with certain adjustments though, as the game allows for a variety of approaches to win battles, and there is enough choice so players don't have to rely on one specific type of unit only (at least that goes for the main combattants).

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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by Andy2012 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:26 pm

Mojko wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:34 pm
Finished Market garden and I must say this was the most intimidating scenario yet. 3 separate battle fronts? Low supply cap? No Air support? I had to restart a couple of times as the initial position of your troops matter VERY much. With good troop positions, this scenario is actually super easy. Here are my recommendations.

- Heavy artillery, Elite infantry and lot of Engineers is the key
- remove transport from your infantry to free up supply
- do not deploy any AA as there is one aux AA in the south and that's all you need initially
- all aux units can be saved with the exception of one AT gun in the center, two useless trucks and one bautruppe

North paradrop group

- deploy 4x 17 K18 south of the enemy
- do not deploy any infantry to the North east, it's the most guarded approach, instead deploy your infantry east and south
- there is one aux infantry so just move it around to the north so it link with your eastern forces
- take two 10CP tiles as these are lightly guarded, avoid killing any enemy units, damage them only instead, this will put your enemy under supply quickly
- note that enemy paratroopers have fuel, so they will run out of supply later
- two enemy paradrops will happen and the key is to have a nice line of units close together so you don't get separated
- make sure to hit all freshly deployed paratroopers with your artillery as they suffered efficiency from their landing, but will recover on the next turn if you don't hit them

Center paradrop group

- only deploy two elite infantry units here (no engineers)
- on first turn you need to push the enemy out of the city tile which provides 20CP
- this can be done like this:
- first elite infantry will push out enemy recon unit
- second elite infantry is free to attack the city
- before the attack on the city tile attack the enemy infantry with two hits from your artillery
- take the city, recover damaged aux infantry and move in second aux infantry from the east
- your goal here is to only hold the city tile with your infantry and support it by the two aux infantries
- make sure the aux AT gun is in the open and in range of enemy artillery
- this will draw all incoming artillery fire to the useless AT gun and will not weaken your infantry units
- keep this position like this until the situation in the north is under control
- this will free up your second elite infantry to help up with the situation in the north

Southern paradrop

- deploy 3x 17 K18
- elite infantry (no engineers)
- deploy two panther tanks (one west one east), other tanks are useless as they are too slow and will get outflanked too easily
- advance your panther tanks and provide cover for the retreating aux units
- aux AT run to the east should retreat to the north east
- aux heavy inf should retreat to the north
- with heavy artillery support you should be able to break the paradrop here quite easily as they are not really entrenched yet
- ignore enemy recon unit in the paradrop area as it's not a threat
- form two strong points: one in the big city and one near the eastern aux heavy infantry
- there is an aux AT gun in the center with no transport which can also be saved, just head north and use your tank to cover it
- you can also use your mobile AA to block enemy movement to save the AT gun
- move the recon unit in the east to the center and provide support where needed
- move in all remaining aux units forward to support the frontline


Reinforcements

1st round

- tank (south) and infantry (north)

2nd round

- 2 Flak 88 in the south and 1 engineers in the north

3rd round

- 4 x Me 262 (deploy north and intercept the enemy paradrop)


You should have situation under control around turn 10, counter attack in the south and wipe out all enemy units on the map before turn 20. I had a lot of fun on this one :D .
Agree with Mojko's approach, kind of did the same. (More later.) Minor quibble: I had everything done and wiped out around turn 12-14, the I had to wait six turns to win. Win trigger should be set earlier. Still had a ton of fun.

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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by Andy2012 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:35 pm

Okay, I beat back the paratroopers and it indeed was a bridge too far - for them. 8)
As Mojko said, have enough arty and Nebelwerfers to shellshock them. I brought some AT along in my Jagdpanthers to keep my commanders safe aka not injured.
As usual, rotate damaged units to the back, take their supply hubs, starve them out. In the south, save your aux units, retreat behind the river. When the paras are dead, send your AT and arty south to help.
Luftwaffe mops up, rely on fighters only.
Minor bug: Photo event is missing.
On to Aachen then.
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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by Andy2012 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:45 pm

Alright, the siege of Aachen is lifted (at least for now). This mission gives you the mighty, mighty King Tiger - so if you have the funds, go for it.
I think the most important, battle-winning decision here is to resist the temptation to concentrate a tank-heavy relief force on the paved road from Juelich to Aachen and to have that bulky army directly push for Aachen. This will get cut off, flanked and annihilated quickly.
Rather, form several smaller Kampfgruppen of 1 Jagdpanther, 2-3 inf and a Nebelwerfer around the secondary cities to hold them. Slowly push from the southeast (Huertgenforest) towards Aachen to open a supply link. In Aachen, deploy some Nebelwerfers and infantry from the start and shellshock attackers, as usual. Your King Tigers can still mount an attack along the paved road to Aachen - but this should not be your main thrust. Luftwaffe jets clear the skies, but only refuel and repair near Juelich. Huertgenforest is next.
Minor bugs: Photo event is a blank, typo "thought" instead of "taught". Another thing - this should end faster, I waited a few turns after Aachen was no longer surrounded.
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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by bebro » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:23 pm

Thx for the feedback :)

The pic issues will be changed for 7.1.5 (release version)

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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by Mojko » Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:11 pm

Finished Aachen scenario. This was pretty easy and straightforward. Here are my notes:

- this is another example of "deployment trap"
- there are not enough deployment tiles in the front so make sure you don't deploy all of your forces (the muddy terrain prevents units deployed in the back to reach the frontlines)
- the remainder of the forces should be deployed on the first turn in the front after already deployed forces moved out of the way
- don't deploy too many units to Aachen as it's not needed

Aachen deployment group:

- 3x Engineers without transport
- 1x Flak 88

I will add numbers to each secondary VP for clarity starting from north going south (1, 2, 3, 4).

Secondary VP 1

- no units

Secondary VP 2 (first and second wave of deployments)

- 3 x Panther (some deployed during deployment phase, some on turn 1)
- 3x 17 K18
- 1x Flak 88 (deployed on turn 1)
- Gebirgsjager (some deployed during deployment phase, some on turn 1)

Secondary VP 3 (first and second wave of deployments)

- 4x 17 K18 (deployment phase)
- Gebirgsjager (some deployed during deployment phase, some on turn 1)

Secondary VP 4 (first wave of deployment only)

- 2 x Panther
- Gebirgsjager


Enemy will attack towards all secondary VPs, here are the engagements notes:

- use the VP 2 force to defend VP 2 and VP 1. The main push should come to VP 2, but Panthers are very fast and can be moved around easily. Use superior mobility to cut off supply and retreat paths for clunky and slow US tanks.
- move your infantry force in VP 3 to forest area in the west and hold your position there until artillery support becomes available and the initial counter attack has been cleared
- defeat invading force closing in on VP 4 and then push towards Aachen

Aachen garrison:

- with 3 engineers the whole garrison can shuffle their position and dig in almost immediately enemy should never threaten your position
- make sure to reposition your engineers so they are nicely spread out giving digger bonus to all units, ideally put them on edges as they excel at fighting in high cover terrain
- make sure to support bunkers with AT guns as the US tanks and recons will happily throw themselves at the bunkers losing most of their HP

Auxiliary units outside of Aachen:

- there is one Volksturm unit south of VP 2
- retreat towards VP 2 and use you VP 2 forces to save this unit
- park in in the VP 2 tile

- there is one auxiliary AA gun in the back
- move it to VP 2 artillery base

- once you have secured Aachen move two Volksturm units out and place them to guard VP 3 and VP 4

- there is one infantry in the primary VP tile in the center
- leave it there until all enemy attacks are stopped and then move it to Aachen

This strategy intentionally leaves a large gap between VP 2 and VP 3. Enemy will use this and pushes toward the central primary VP. By the time they move forward you should have attack in the north and the south under control and that's when you spring the trap.

Close the gap between VP 2 and VP 3 with your panthers , cut of the supply of the overextended enemy and crush the hapless fools! There is one auxiliary recon unit which is great for moping up undersupplies forces.

Further notes:

- there is no need to move your artillery units for the most part of the whole scenario as their range covers the whole area of combat
- once you are done with crushing the enemy, you can move the southern artillery units to Aachen if you want but at this point, it's not really necessary

Lessons leaned:

- [good] high mobility tanks are worth much more compared to clunky and slow ones if you know how to exploit it properly
- [good] engineers with proper specialisation and entrenchment can easily fend of all of enemy infantry including heavy infantry
- [questionable] do not use regular infantry (Gebirgsjager are much more mobile)
- [bad] 17 K18 units are super OP, basically one of these units can take out one enemy unit out of commission with one attack, for this scenario this means 7 enemy units per turn are taken out of action (either need to retreat or are destroyed by followup attacks)

As discussed before I think heavy artillery should definitely get +1 CP requirement as simple RP cost increase has little impact in the late game. I would maybe even go further and decrease the RP cost in case CP cost went up.

Btw my SS faction are lazy fatcats :D . They just sit all day in the back and fire their four 17 K18 units from afar at the enemy while hoarding RPs (they now have almost 2000 RPs).

On to the next Aachen scenario. This is where we reclaim Aachen from the US occupation 8) .
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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by bebro » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:23 am

7 K18! :shock:

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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by 13obo » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:31 pm

I was rolling with 4x k18 and 4x hummels by end of campaign- each scenario, the aim is that roughly 1/3 of CP (including aux troops) should be artillery. Works wonders to soften up and then mop up the enemy.

On aachen, deployed 3x hummels and 4x k18. Found hummels to be very useful for pushing the front.

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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by Mojko » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:52 pm

bebro wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:23 am
7 K18! :shock:
I'm actually thinking about adding one more. I like to keep the unit count on round numbers so I can easily split them to two divisions :D.
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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by Andy2012 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:04 am

@13obo, Mojko, bebro: I wonder if using that much arty will not hinder your attack when having to advance on a broad front or having attack pincers far apart. The K18 has a long range, but not that long. So your assault troops and spearheads might get swarmed and then there is nothing left to cover your arty. Did that happen?

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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by bebro » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:00 pm

Hm, would be nice to hear from Mojko how he does in the last scns, where he's not on the defensive.

But maybe he has enough stuff (or RP to buy it) in his pool beyond arty.

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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by GUNDOBALDO08 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:28 pm

What about 7.1.5? Any release date?

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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by Mojko » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:07 pm

bebro wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:00 pm
Hm, would be nice to hear from Mojko how he does in the last scns, where he's not on the defensive.

But maybe he has enough stuff (or RP to buy it) in his pool beyond arty.

Actually, 17 K18 is absolutely fine even in offensive scenarios. The deployment is often very important - you always need to stick to paved roads. It's been quite possible so far. The only exception where I was struggling were few scenarios where the map was a decent size and it was muddy terrain. 17 K18 have halftrack movement type which is really bad in muddy terrain. This wasn't a problem though, because those scenarios had a generous turn limit.


Finished Hurtgenwald scenario. I decided to follow Rommel's footsteps and disregard my orders. My new objectives were:

- retake Aachen
- do not retreat even an inch anywhere

Again, deploying all your forces during the deployment phase is not a good idea as you can't fit all units into forward positions. Deploy Flak 88 and other less important units on turn 1. This time I split my forces into 3 groups:

Army group north:

- 1x Flak 88
- 2x 17 K18
- 3x Panther
- some Engineers (no transports) and Gebirgsjager

Army group center:

- 2x 17 K18
- 2x Panther
- some Engineers (no transports) and Gebirgsjager

Army group south

- 1x Flak 88 (looking back this Flak could be more useful in the center group)
- 3x 17 K18
- 5x Gebirgsjager


First silence their artillery with your artillery. This is easy as 17 K18 is more powerful and has longer range than anything the US forces have. US forces are overly aggressive, take advantage of that and leave gaps in your front allowing the AI to push forward with separate units. Encircle and destroy them. Engineers are very useful as there are lot of forests where they excel at fighting.

When you have the chance to deploy air units, deploy 3 Me 262.

Timeline:

- turn 3 - enemy artillery should be out of commision
- turn 5 - most of the US spearhead should be destroyed or routed
- turn 10 - your units should have advanced to where enemy artillery positions were at the start
- turn 14 - Aachen retaken, start wiping the map
- turn 17 - scenario prematurely ends so the map wipe is difficult to achieve

Overall this feels like a repeat of the previous scenario. I'm a little bit underwhelmed by the air force management in this campaign as it seems like always taking all fighter units with highest small air attack values is the best choice.

I actually spent a lot time doing research in Unit Navigator on other air units, but there is not enough supply to allow any diversity. I wonder if we can somehow make the air unit choice more diverse.

I had a lot of fun overall, though :D . Now on the Ardennes!

Current RPs:

roughly 2000 RPs for both factions.
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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by bebro » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:06 pm

GUNDOBALDO08 wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:28 pm
What about 7.1.5? Any release date?
I don't have a precise ETA yet, but the beta is planned to run into january for now.
Mojko wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:07 pm
I'm a little bit underwhelmed by the air force management in this campaign as it seems like always taking all fighter units with highest small air attack values is the best choice.
Thx for the feedback :)

Re air units: in a number of scns, esp. in the West 1944-45 air CP for the player is reduced to reflect the situation that the Allies had overwhelming air superiority, while the Luftwaffe is stretched to the limit.

In the west its gets somewhat better again when you are done with the defensive scns, so you get more air units to deploy in the last scns, and could use a mix of fighters/bombers then again - but if you use vulnerable bombers carelessly you can still suffer from heavy Allied air activity.

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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by Mojko » Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:12 pm

bebro wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:06 pm
Re air units: in a number of scns, esp. in the West 1944-45 air CP for the player is reduced to reflect the situation that the Allies had overwhelming air superiority, while the Luftwaffe is stretched to the limit.

In the west its gets somewhat better again when you are done with the defensive scns, so you get more air units to deploy in the last scns, and could use a mix of fighters/bombers then again - but if you use vulnerable bombers carelessly you can still suffer from heavy Allied air activity.
I'm at Antwerp now and it seems I will need to mix in some bombers :D

Finished Ardennes Offensive. This was a pretty straightforward battle. Push the enemy out and do not overextend. Flak 88 and 17 K18 are very good here. There are paved roads and rails which enable to transport these pieces quite rapidly. Gebirgsjager and engineer easily clear the mountains and forests areas.

Not sure what's about the actions behind enemy lines. The paratroopers can be repaired to full at the start and the fuel depot is very close to the starting positions anyway. The other operation gives you US infantry with 4 strength and damages enemy infantry by 3. There is also no VP in the area so I'm not sure what's that supposed to be for.

Anyway, I saved both the paratroopers and US infantry (infiltrator). I really like the idea to have the option to make a decision on auxiliary units setup. I would like to see this idea to be expanded on in future campaigns.

Overall, great scenario. On to Antwerp!
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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by bebro » Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:21 pm

Glad you like it! Re SpecOps:
Mojko wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:12 pm
Not sure what's about the actions behind enemy lines. The paratroopers can be repaired to full at the start and the fuel depot is very close to the starting positions anyway. The other operation gives you US infantry with 4 strength and damages enemy infantry by 3. There is also no VP in the area so I'm not sure what's that supposed to be for.
Those ops were part of the operation, but they were not that successful or outright failures.

Still, the player can decide to repair the paras on his own for one additional unit aiding his advance. The other one is random - they might do some damage, get you some RP, or fail totally (but you could also select to get more aux units instead to get rid of the randomized trigger for those completely).

Overall they're included for historic flavour, but are not intended to provide huge advantages.

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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by GabeKnight » Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:05 am

1st Soviet Donbass Offensive

v715b2, lvl5, predefined core

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Replay for those interested. Although I'm not sure it's gonna play okay.
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Re: Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

Post by GabeKnight » Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:43 am

Smolensk '43

Now it got a lot easier here. The enemy was done at turn 10-ish, with only sporadic attacks happening after that. But good god, did it really have to be that much enemy airforce? They even tried to shoot down my strat. bomber! Strat. bomber! When does the AI do that? They've lost more planes doing that than with my AA. :lol: It reminds my of Erik's Naval Campaign, where my high-air-def strat. bombers were my best offense against the Japanese Zeros... :lol:

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Two of the Soviet planes with maybe 8-10 HP attacked my 5-star, 3HP FW190G (and commander!) without my plane suffering any visible HP damage. Nice, but maybe a bit over the top.

I'm a bit hesitant to post replays, as it's beta and some units may not work in v7.1.4. But I've saved them all for later, if someone wants to open another "Replay
Style" thread after the next patch.

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