Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #8

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Retributarr
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #8

Post by Retributarr » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:37 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:06 pm
I can't speak for the strength or weaknesses of new Panzer Corps 2 AI yet, but I know how I'd like to proceed.

I understand why people also want smarter and more challenging AI, but I have to be devil's advocate here and say that isn't really conductive to long campaigns, especially not Grand Campaign long.

That said, I have at least a few ideas up my sleeves I want to try when approaching Panzer Corps 2 content because it would add nice variety to the scenarios to have some where the AI is brutally strong not because of overwhelming numbers but through some other means... But we'll just have to see when we get there. ;)
Sound's like you have plan in mind!...Great!!!. I'm all for wanting "a smarter and more challenging AI", but hopefully with the option to select just how 'Brutal' I want my 'AI' to be, so that I can avoid the catastrophic pitfall's that you have described.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #8

Post by AndreyBacerage » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:19 am

Hopefully The A.I. is some faster in Panzer Corps 2 - Order of Battle, Panzer Corps and also Strategic Command arent playable - to much waiting between turns. In other modern wargames you have to wait only 1-2 minutes. In OoB and Strategic Command it takes sometimes 20-30 min !
Last edited by AndreyBacerage on Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #8

Post by proline » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:21 am

Kerensky wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:06 pm
I understand why people also want smarter and more challenging AI, but I have to be devil's advocate here and say that isn't really conductive to long campaigns, especially not Grand Campaign long. If you play chess and trade down pieces the entire game and win with 3 pieces left against 1 enemy... that's a great and hard fought battle of attrition but imagine playing the next round of chess with only those 3 pieces left.
You're conflating making the AI smarter with making the game harder. There are already ways of making the game hard, but they don't make it particularly fun. GC East scenarios where you have to kill 50+ armored soviet units are a good example. It gets repetitive because the AI will never use artillery effectively, will lose all its air immediately, won't take advantage of terrain, etc. It's units also won't deviate from their prescribed paths, which means that you can leave much of your territory undefended and just go around with your units in one or usually two large balls.

A more dynamic AI that can apply proper strategy and tactics but has half the units would be more fun and could be calibrated to produce similar loses to the human player.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #8

Post by Kerensky » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:00 am

AndreyBacerage wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:19 am
Hopefully The A.I. is some faster in Panzer Corps 2 - Order of Battle, Panzer Corps and also Strategic Command arent playable - to much waiting between turns. In other modern wargames you have to wait only 1-2 minutes. In OoB and Strategic Command it takes sometimes 20-30 min !
I think the devs have talked about this... but if I'm remembering wrong they haven't yet I'm sure they'll have something very interesting to share about it when they do. ;)

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #8

Post by terminator » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:29 am

AndreyBacerage wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:19 am
Hopefully The A.I. is some faster in Panzer Corps 2 - Order of Battle, Panzer Corps and also Strategic Command arent playable - to much waiting between turns. In other modern wargames you have to wait only 1-2 minutes. In OoB and Strategic Command it takes sometimes 20-30 min !
I play almost every day with Order of Battle and on different computers. In my opinion there is no problem with the length of the AI Turn. Maybe it comes from the characteristics of your computer ? Could changing your computer solve your problem ?

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #8

Post by Stephen1024 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:40 am

Couple points not been mentioned about tanks of WW2!

Sherman was designed not to engage tanks but as infantry support. America believed in the tank destroyer doc. Hence it was out gunned and not best choice. Mass manufacture was is strength and trying keep 4-1 ratio against German tanks. Americans used lot of tank destroyers. It had high side profile made it an easy target to which was big issue.

Panther was great tank and most tanks built after WW2 use lot what was first done on panther tank. The failing was that design faults were not corrected as Hitler wanted bigger and better all the time. If Germany had mass produced the panther and only panther not kept designing new tanks then things would been different. Also must remember that the panther was to some degree designed off of the T-34.

T-34 had some great ideas wide tracks and sloped armour but was badly manufactured and again wasn't as good design as panther, but again mass production and the correction to designs helped the T-34. Would the Russian army of done as well if it only built T-34 probably not. T-34 wasn't alone had IS tanks and lot others too.

What was best tank non of them they all had failings no point having panthers which break down cause silly design fault which isn't corrected and when don't have numbers to out kill the enemy. Also not much good having any tank if not got fuel to keep it working. General Patton found out that the hard way, when he choose to ignore his bosses and keep charging forward. He ran out of fuel had his ass kicked. Lot good men died because he wanted keep going without the supplies.

Fact that the Americans were wrong about how tank would be used in a war was very costly and would take years to correct. There replacement for Sherman arrived very late.

Russian tank suited the way Russians fight, cheap and easy to build and they never really cared about how many people died. Therefore T-34 wasn't good tank suited the needs of what it was designed for. T-34 was built at a time when Germany hadn't built it's heavier tanks. Against lighter tanks that German had it was better tank.

Now if you could build the panther on the mass production of the Americans and correct its faults then yes best tank would of been Panther but this never happened so is mute. If we are just choosing what we like best, well that is a personal taste thing and each person right, what you like is what you like.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #8

Post by AndreyBacerage » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:42 am

Could changing your computer solve your problem ?
I use Intel Pentium G4560 2x 3.50GHz with two GeForce RTX 2080. OoB still need sometimes more than 95% of my CPU and I have to wait and wait for ending the turn !

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #8

Post by zakblood » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:49 am

sorry to say, your system is really lacking it horse power, your CPU's can't keep up with your GPU's and tbh nobody would put one RTX 2080 into a G4560 mind 2, i'm very sorry to say, no way in a million years can it keep up, the RTX 2080 is one of the latest and fastest cards out there, with the bottle neck being the G4560, one of the slowest on the market

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DL7YcPlJ83c
but sure i'm not the 1st to mention this tbh, just look at the price for a starting point, it's like buying a Ferrari engine and car and then putting on square wheels, yes it will work, but the CPU will never ever even with one card in, keep up, some one gave you very very poor advice

no one would recommend or fit 2 of these cards into a low end bog standard and cheap slow cpu, unless they were scamming you

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https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/recommended-cpu-for-rtx-2080-non-ti.3371644/
even the first and most standard of net searches for the cards, show up the reasons why a fast high end CPU is needed, with plenty of ram also and a 64bit O/S to really get the ball rolling, in all the years, 30 plus now of building pc's, iv'e never heard or seen a more top heavy, high end card paired with such a low end and poor CPU, so guessing it's not a great motherboard either and as you don;'t mention ram either, or much of anything else, i'm not surprised with the money spent, you're somewhat upset with how it performs in games, take out one card and sell it, buy a new CPU and with just one in and a good CPU, it will run twice as fast or better, who ever gives you the information, don't talk to them again, they haven't a clue on how a GPU works i'm again sorry to say,...

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https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Pentium+G4560+%40+3.50GHz&id=2925
tbh i wouldn't have even picked the cards myself for the cost per performance gains, you would have been better with either one or 2 GeForce GTX 1050 Ti, better overall value for speed V's cost

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https://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu.php?id=3991
so good or best advice

sell at least one card

but a new and faster cpu, either a I7 or what ever is mentioned as good v's price per speed in the charts
makes sure you have at least 8gb of ram, 16 is better
use a SSD for gaming.

my old 5 to 6 year test pc works great in OOB, with loading times and cpu and GPU use medium end of the scale

my spec is for testing not my main gaming rig mind you

Operating System: Windows 10 Home 64-bit (10.0, Build 17763) (17763.rs5_release.180914-1434)
Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2700K CPU @ 3.50GHz (8 CPUs), ~3.5GHz
Memory: 16384MB RAM
Card name: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960
Display Memory: 12221 MB
Dedicated Memory: 4053 MB
Shared Memory: 8168 MB
Current Mode: 1920 x 1080 (32 bit) (60Hz)

Model: ADATA SP900 sdd is a low cost high speed version, and yes it's 6 years old, but still rated at the high end of SDD even today, not the fastest by a long way, but faster than any SSHD and 70% to 80% of any SSD

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #8

Post by Stephen1024 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:57 am

Now if we talked planes that be different!

Spitfire was the best plane of WW2 why simply because it was most versatile plane. It lasted from 1939-1945 no other plane could really boast that and add to that that it was highly upgradable. That is what really want in any equipment in time of war easy produced and easy to upgrade.

Looking forward to getting release date on Panzer Corps 2.

Happy Valentines everyone!

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #8

Post by AndreyBacerage » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:26 am

zakblood
Thank you for a detailed answer - my computer was put together by a company that told me I can keep my old CPU, but I need 2 high quality graphics cards.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #8

Post by zakblood » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:41 am

you need to do them under the trade description act, if in the UK as they are cowboy builders imo

2 cards of that type and power will yes work in the M/B and with the CPU, but the CPU won't be able to work at it's full capacity with the bottle neck the CPU makes, adding a second card has only doubled the fact, it would have been and cheaper and the overall results quicker, if the CPU would have been changed, and tbh it would have been much cheaper than a second GPU so money saved could have gotten you more ram or a better SSD etc :(

sorry to say you got ripped off, not the first and won't be the last, as someone you spoke to, doesn't do it for a living regarding gaming etc :( which is poor at best and questionable at best to even what there were trying to do or recommend? as gaming it's always has been and always will be, CPU first and foremost then GPU plus memory and speed comes with getting the whole package to work together at the speed of it's fastest parts, not slow everything else down to the slowest, so throwing in a good SDD helps all.

have a 64bit system for 32bit games is now an advantage, as the latest version of windows is much quicker than any of the previous versions, with 64bit being better still, and yes even on pure 32bit apps and programs, as it's memory and cpu memory management is far better.

2 cards working together increases the amount of bus memory two fold, so putting it paired with a slower CPU makes it work harder, and in the end will cause bottle necks, which again makes it slower, so less FPS, as the CPU never get the information to the cards quick enough, so you get a delay, called latency in pc terms, ram is only used from one card, so all that very expensive high end memory doesn't get used, so waste number one, which is only a small fraction of the miss known and just one of many why i myself don't and won't use 2 cards

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https://www.wepc.com/tips/what-is-sli/
i'd hazard a guess that 90% of all games on all 3 sites won't work any better with even one of your cards in, so overkill, some could even be worse with 2 in any game, as the higher the game like FPS, the more detail is throws to the card, causing a bigger and longer delay because of the slower CPU used. so high end AAA titles will give you worse results than any war game here, fact 101.

don't wish or mean to upset you more or post so many links etc

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https://www.wepc.com/tips/cpu-gpu-bottleneck/
i don't also agree with the budget choice of CPU, imo if money is that tight, then don't play on a pc and use a xbox / console etc as better value and will work with the hardware at a good FPS rate at a ok res, if you use the pc how you are in 1920x1080 it will give bottle necks, if you play or wish to use 4k, the % of slow downs and bottle necks with be a % higher so worse, as 4k uses more, it's that simple :oops:

how to see if it's not working right, is play any game, and if the CPU is maxed out and the GPU isn't even looking like it's being used, then it's bottle necked more often than not, unless it's a game which doesn't use the GPU as much etc etc

PeteMitchell_2
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #8

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:34 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:00 am
AndreyBacerage wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:19 am
Hopefully The A.I. is some faster in Panzer Corps 2 - Order of Battle, Panzer Corps and also Strategic Command arent playable - to much waiting between turns. In other modern wargames you have to wait only 1-2 minutes. In OoB and Strategic Command it takes sometimes 20-30 min !
I think the devs have talked about this... but if I'm remembering wrong they haven't yet I'm sure they'll have something very interesting to share about it when they do. ;)
Do we already know some (recommended) system requirements for PzC 2?

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #8

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:37 pm

proline wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:21 am
Kerensky wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:06 pm
I understand why people also want smarter and more challenging AI, but I have to be devil's advocate here and say that isn't really conductive to long campaigns, especially not Grand Campaign long. If you play chess and trade down pieces the entire game and win with 3 pieces left against 1 enemy... that's a great and hard fought battle of attrition but imagine playing the next round of chess with only those 3 pieces left.
You're conflating making the AI smarter with making the game harder. There are already ways of making the game hard, but they don't make it particularly fun. GC East scenarios where you have to kill 50+ armored soviet units are a good example. It gets repetitive because the AI will never use artillery effectively, will lose all its air immediately, won't take advantage of terrain, etc. It's units also won't deviate from their prescribed paths, which means that you can leave much of your territory undefended and just go around with your units in one or usually two large balls.

A more dynamic AI that can apply proper strategy and tactics but has half the units would be more fun and could be calibrated to produce similar loses to the human player.
While I understand Kerensky's concerns on being able to keep your core alive, I agree more with proline's points on what a good/smart AI should be able to do…

Ah and by the way, during WW2 (at least on the German side) entire divisions, army corps and armies had to be reformed/re-established after having been (partly and/or completely) destroyed. Depending on your definition of "reformed", you could even say that entire army groups were reformed, at least significantly regrouped, i.e. due to heavy losses (besides other reasons).

In addition, on the infantry side, there were 35 (!) mobilization/recruiting waves between 1934 and 1945 in Germany: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aufstellungswelle

So having to reform (some or even many) units was part of the war, as unfortunate as it might sound (nowadays)…

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #8

Post by ptje63 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:24 pm

PeteMitchell_2 wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:34 pm
Kerensky wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:00 am
AndreyBacerage wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:19 am
Hopefully The A.I. is some faster in Panzer Corps 2 - Order of Battle, Panzer Corps and also Strategic Command arent playable - to much waiting between turns. In other modern wargames you have to wait only 1-2 minutes. In OoB and Strategic Command it takes sometimes 20-30 min !
I think the devs have talked about this... but if I'm remembering wrong they haven't yet I'm sure they'll have something very interesting to share about it when they do. ;)
Do we already know some (recommended) system requirements for PzC 2?
Question for me too... My PC is 8 years old and having no problems with PC, etc. - playing PC2 WITH PC update would be getting costly I guess.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #8

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:27 pm

ptje63 wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:24 pm
PeteMitchell_2 wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:34 pm
Kerensky wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:00 am


I think the devs have talked about this... but if I'm remembering wrong they haven't yet I'm sure they'll have something very interesting to share about it when they do. ;)
Do we already know some (recommended) system requirements for PzC 2?
Question for me too... My PC is 8 years old and having no problems with PC, etc. - playing PC2 WITH PC update would be getting costly I guess.
That's exactly why I was asking... :roll: :mrgreen:

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #8

Post by ptje63 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:29 pm

PeteMitchell_2 wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:37 pm
proline wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:21 am
Kerensky wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:06 pm
I understand why people also want smarter and more challenging AI, but I have to be devil's advocate here and say that isn't really conductive to long campaigns, especially not Grand Campaign long. If you play chess and trade down pieces the entire game and win with 3 pieces left against 1 enemy... that's a great and hard fought battle of attrition but imagine playing the next round of chess with only those 3 pieces left.
You're conflating making the AI smarter with making the game harder. There are already ways of making the game hard, but they don't make it particularly fun. GC East scenarios where you have to kill 50+ armored soviet units are a good example. It gets repetitive because the AI will never use artillery effectively, will lose all its air immediately, won't take advantage of terrain, etc. It's units also won't deviate from their prescribed paths, which means that you can leave much of your territory undefended and just go around with your units in one or usually two large balls.

A more dynamic AI that can apply proper strategy and tactics but has half the units would be more fun and could be calibrated to produce similar loses to the human player.
While I understand Kerensky's concerns on being able to keep your core alive, I agree more with proline's points on what a good/smart AI should be able to do…

Ah and by the way, during WW2 (at least on the German side) entire divisions, army corps and armies had to be reformed/re-established after having been (partly and/or completely) destroyed. Depending on your definition of "reformed", you could even say that entire army groups were reformed, at least significantly regrouped, i.e. due to heavy losses (besides other reasons).

In addition, on the infantry side, there were 35 (!) mobilization/recruiting waves between 1934 and 1945 in Germany: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aufstellungswelle

So having to reform (some or even many) units was part of the war, as unfortunate as it might sound (nowadays)…
I agree. And as far as AI performence concerned, my earlier remark concerning AI's performance in realtime strategy games, I guess its all about that: experiencing a less all AI pre-configured game(play), but one that is defensively as well as offensively responding accordingly to the user's actions.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #8

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:45 pm

As we have discussed quite a few very interesting ‘off topics’ in this dev diary #8 (it was originally about 'naval warfare')… I wanted to ask: what will be the topic of the next dev diary (and when will it be released)? Thanks! :D

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #8

Post by proline » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:55 pm

PeteMitchell_2 wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:45 pm
As we have discussed quite a few very interesting ‘off topics’ in this dev diary #8 (it was originally about 'naval warfare')… I wanted to ask: what will be the topic of the next dev diary (and when will it be released)? Thanks! :D
They've been pretty consistent about sending them out monthly. As for the topic, I'm not sure. Sooner or later they will have to show us what infantry look like, so they might as well get it out of the way. The very first screenshots had infantry, but they were bland and impossible to tell apart. That will always be a problem, because the camera is now overhead so you have to be able to tell them apart by their helmets and hairstyles. We'll see what solutions are coming...

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #8

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:34 pm

adiekmann wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:23 am
PeteMitchell_2 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:17 pm
Regarding automatically returning planes, I had read this in previous dev diaries already, what if the map is bigger and you want to transfer planes from one area to another or you want to fly a long-distance attack (which might require more than one turn, possible given the range of some planes): could you then switch off the auto-return-function to airfields and carriers?
This is a very interesting and important question that I hadn't thought of before. Clearly there must be a way to transfer air units to another base? I hope we get some clarification on this point.
It would be nice to hear/read some official point of view on this concern, e.g. as a reply or as part of other future updates, thanks!

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #8

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:36 pm

proline wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:55 pm
...and hairstyles.
:lol: :D :mrgreen: for inspiration: https://www.fashionbeans.com/article/cl ... s-for-men/

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