Afrika Korps beta test

Order of Battle is a series of operational WW2 games starting with the Pacific War and then on to Europe!

Moderators: The Artistocrats, Order of Battle Moderators

WarHomer
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 330
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:12 pm

Re: Afrika Korps beta test

Post by WarHomer » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:45 am

I found the difficulty level suitable, except for Malta. Field Marshall.

Please make the aux units in the mission with the oilwells better and a worthwhile reward. They should be able to hold their own if managed properly. As it is now you need to reinforce by air and that´s difficult and costly.

Also remember the trouble with airlifting other units than paras in the Caucasus(?) mission.

Andy2012
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:55 pm

Re: Afrika Korps beta test

Post by Andy2012 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:50 pm

WarHomer wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:45 am
I found the difficulty level suitable, except for Malta. Field Marshall.

Please make the aux units in the mission with the oilwells better and a worthwhile reward. They should be able to hold their own if managed properly. As it is now you need to reinforce by air and that´s difficult and costly.

Also remember the trouble with airlifting other units than paras in the Caucasus(?) mission.
Longer timeframe (more turns) would also help a lot. In Panzercorps, you dont have to safeguard your supply lines all the time and units are easier to destroy since battles are more random. I mean, I can churn through high RAF numbers and superior tanks, but it takes time.

Mojko
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 458
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:04 am

Re: Afrika Korps beta test

Post by Mojko » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:22 pm

Erik2 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:22 am
If some players find the scenarios too easy and other players too hard, maybe the play balance is not too bad ? :D
I do appreciate all suggestions and will probably even implemented some of them :wink:
I think the difficulty is fine overall. I would mostly recommend tweaking the Tobruk defences so you would not break them and also adding some static enemy units (not covering objectives) to prevent map wipes. Neither of these changes would effect difficulty as they are not objectives related.
Author and maintainer of Unit Navigator Tool for Order Of Battle (http://mfendek.byethost16.com/)

Andy2012
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:55 pm

Re: Afrika Korps beta test

Post by Andy2012 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:31 pm

Erik2 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:52 pm
I have started updating all the Afrika Korps scenarios.
I recommend anyone playing this campaign to take a break until I'm finished.
There are 24 scenarios so it will take some time.

Suez: I think this also shows what I felt in the first few missions. There is no point in bringing bombers because the British have too much air power and will reinforce forever. This is just grinding through Spitfires and Hurricanes and carrier planes.
If you forget that there is a heavy British fleet near the Coast, they will bombard you. You have to know most missions by heart to beat them well.
I am always assuming that there is some misfiring trigger or twist not there in the Panzercorps missions which will set off an attack on my rear supply lines (no biggie in Panzercorps, but kills you in OoB).
Summed up: Too much RAF air power, all at once. AI will reinforce forever, your army is too small. I have to chase them throug the desert, annoying. Also, you either analyse all triggers via the editor before playing or you restart and restart.
I think you assume I always elite reinforce - which wasnt necessary or doable in the original DLCs.
This might be colored by my playstyle which worked well in the original DLCs and me always having Panzercorps Afrikakorps in the back of my head. 'Too hard' is not my point - rather frustrating and a bit random. (Also, why is there a biplane torpedo bomber here?)

Andy2012
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:55 pm

Re: Afrika Korps beta test

Post by Andy2012 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:30 pm

Minor additions to Suez: The carrier fighters attack, the Swordfish just lingers and dies. Doesnt attack, doesnt refuel. AI Fleet just floats. In AK, there was a flanking tank attack over the Nile river in the south. The twist in this mission was (I remember pretty well) that you needed to defeat the attack over the river and then flank the defenders with your own landing further down south. This doesnt work in OoB. Right now, I get shot to shit by eternally reinforced RAF fighters (slowly drying up, but it feels eternal) and shelled from a lot of heavy arty. I think this is doable in the turns provided, but (maybe it is just me) it always feels either too faithful to the original in terms of AI force structure and triggers or in practice totally different and therefore leading me astray. I know a perfect recreation is impossible, but I think a few more adaptions and lines to the briefing would help: What is happening, what can I expect?

Still, you poured hours into this and I thank you, Erik. :D

Erik2
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 6281
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:59 pm
Location: Norway

Re: Afrika Korps beta test

Post by Erik2 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:35 am

Andy, as you probably noticed I didn't do many changes to the scenarios after you stopped temporarily.
I'll collect feedback on the next/rest of the scenarios before publishing a new version.

Btw, I checked income Allies vs Axis in the scenarios and they are mostly around the same level. Since I basically use a system of 1 resource pr turn pr land/air unit this means the number of units on boths sides do not differ much. Depends on how you spend the Axis command points of course...

Also, as a rule the scenarios from Suez and further east should get harder and the Italians more unwilling to provide troops to Rommel's Asian adventure.
Mussolini would probably like to restrict his involvment to Mare Nostrum.

Andy2012
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:55 pm

Re: Afrika Korps beta test

Post by Andy2012 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:43 pm

Erik2 wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:35 am
Andy, as you probably noticed I didn't do many changes to the scenarios after you stopped temporarily.
I'll collect feedback on the next/rest of the scenarios before publishing a new version.

Btw, I checked income Allies vs Axis in the scenarios and they are mostly around the same level. Since I basically use a system of 1 resource pr turn pr land/air unit this means the number of units on boths sides do not differ much. Depends on how you spend the Axis command points of course...

Also, as a rule the scenarios from Suez and further east should get harder and the Italians more unwilling to provide troops to Rommel's Asian adventure.
Mussolini would probably like to restrict his involvment to Mare Nostrum.
Yeah, take your time. This is just taking notes as I get around to it.
And sure, missions should get harder. But as I said, some of the triggers not working fully make it sometimes feel more difficult. That doesnt mean I am not having a lot of fun. :D
Oh yeah - the AI having a bigger army is not a big deal. It is rather that they have ample resources to reinforce weakened units again that feels frustrating.

Mojko
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 458
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:04 am

Re: Afrika Korps beta test

Post by Mojko » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:42 pm

Finished Gazala line scenario (middle difficulty) and here is my feedback.

- good challenge, difficulty is ok
- I played the version with broken sky drop, but my fighters would hunt it down easily mostly because how fighter support fire works in OOB
- wiped the map around turn 24
- it was a lot of fun

Mines should be neutral, not owned by the enemy
- note that if mines are not neutral, enemy units can pass through them, this should definitely not be the case because when you lay a minefield this produces a neutral minefield, not one owned by the player

Southern flank group needs a supply point
- this is needed otherwise it is way too easy to cut the off supply
- I just used the Grant tank which was granted to me for free to ride the the right edge of the map
- the flaking group met my small Italian detachment at 0 supply only to be completely slaughtered

Map wipe should not be mandatory
- please change the objectives in a way that makes map wiping optional
- once you have cut the main British line off the supply it's quite tedious to systematically wipe them out
- I know that you don't have to destroy all the units, but you have to capture lot of objectives there
- I recommend changing the main objectives to be only on the main coastal road and in the centre of the map (flaking line)

Bombers are almost useless
- this is mostly because of the overwhelming presence of enemy fighters
- I used 7 AA guns and 6 fighters and I still couldn't use my tactical bombers to do almost anything

Groupe Hecker is currently pretty useless
- I couldn't find a use for these units as you can't really take Tobruk with them
- this is mostly because the reinforcements from the south will get to Tobruk first
- to use these units you have to commit bombers to destroy the one destroyer blocking the path
- I even tried to reach the other side of the map to cut enemy from supply, but by the time they get there your land units will be there anyway
- also, there are two armoured units guarding the supply point which makes the Engineers useless

Recommendations:

- this scenario lacks variety in possible approach to objectives
- allow player to make a choice to commit resources in exchange for small Italian group of destroyers (only one of these choices can be made)
- allow player to make a choice to commit resources in exchange for small air command points increase for Germany (only one of these choices can be made)

I think these choices would make things much more fun.
Author and maintainer of Unit Navigator Tool for Order Of Battle (http://mfendek.byethost16.com/)

Mojko
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 458
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:04 am

Re: Afrika Korps beta test

Post by Mojko » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:29 am

Finished the malta scenario.

- map wipe at turn 29
- completed all objectives
- lost 1 destroyer

Bugs:

- capture all airfields secondary objective is broken and can't be ticked off (although triggers bound by individual airfield capture are executed)

Notes:

This is one of the hardest scenarios I have ever played. It took me about two hours to only figure out the correct deployment of my units.

Ground invasion force:

- 2x Pz IV F2
- 2x Flak 88

Air force:

- 3x Stukas
- rest are fighters


Ground invasion force instructions

Ground invasion force needs to be deployed at the small peninsula northwest of the Airfield 2. There are exactly two landing spots on the coast to the north of the city (no supply on the city). This spot is not within the range of enemy artillery. There is an enemy engineer in the city. Make sure to move your flak units (in a transport ship) towards the enemy ships to the west to draw their fire. Flaks are cheap to repair and are not needed right away.

Two of your paratroopers will land southwest of the city and take out the lonely enemy artillery unit. After that march to the northeast and link up with the rest of your ground invasion force before you run out of supply. Hide in forests if possible.

All your other paratroopers will go above the city with the engineer and deploy a fighter escort in a "hollow triangle" formation. This is a formation of 3 fighters and 4 non-fighters where any non-fighter is escorted by exactly two fighters. Enemy will attack one of your paratroopers but will suffer damage. Exploit this and shoot them down. Don't follow enemy figthers if they retreat as enemy has powerful and mobile AA guns which will cripple your airforce and you can't afford that.

After your tanks are landed and ready to go land your paratroopers, take out enemy engineers and fortify your position. Don't forget to bring supply ships. Land your Flak units one in AA mode other in AT mode to support your infantry. Move tanks forward an destroy the enemy units which will try to drive you back to the sea. More paratroopers from the north will arrive to reinforce your positions. Enemy is extremely aggressive which is possible to exploit. Finish off their units before they can be reinforced. You goal is to capture the city with gold flag to the southeast. This can be done by the turn 15.

By then the fight for the main island is pretty much over as you are now free to deploy the rest of your forces directly to the main island. Move your ground initial invasion force to the northern city (port) and board transport ships to invade the small island. Note that moving your destroyers to the coast will allow you to embark multiple units in one turn.

Land at the easters part of the northern island. This is now pretty easy as your whole fleet and airforce is supporting your landing. Move your forces to the west and finish off the remaining enemy units.

At the same time the freshly deployed forces on the main island will capture the remaining objectives and wipe out enemy units there.


Naval invasion force instructions

Group west:

Destroy all enemy ships present between the two islands and then move to support your ground invasion. Make sure to help bombers destroy the enemy battery before it can fire even once. Aircraft carrier is very useful as a decoy as enemy will prefer to hit it so make sure it is well within range of enemy ships. Two re-2000 fighters are very good as a decoy as well. Make sure to move them to the east and use them to split the main fleet of the enemy. Just move them within AA range of the last two cruisers and the battleship. These ships will then stay behind and fire on your fighters leaving the forward ships vulnerable.

Make use of your submarines and torpedo enemy battleship at every opportunity. Wipe out the enemy fleet and leave no ship afloat!

Supply ships: retreat all supply ships at the start as you don't need them right away and they are extremely vulnerable.

Group east:

Retreat north out of range of enemy battery. Use your two destroyers to sink enemy destroyer and then link up with your main fleet to the west.


Air invasion force instructions

3 bombers will destroy enemy batteyr between the two islands before it can fire. Then assist in sinking enemy fleet present in the area. Then move to the north and sink the lonely cruiser. Then move south so support your ground invasion. Then move northwest to support your fleet when fighting the main enemy fleet.

Fighters: escort non-fighters and destroy enemy fighters at every opportunity.

Recommendations:

Enemy is way too aggressive and I feel like the enemy naval presence is way too strong.
Author and maintainer of Unit Navigator Tool for Order Of Battle (http://mfendek.byethost16.com/)

Andy2012
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:55 pm

Re: Afrika Korps beta test

Post by Andy2012 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:55 am

@Mojko: Whoa. You are one dedicated mofo.

Erik2
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 6281
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:59 pm
Location: Norway

Re: Afrika Korps beta test

Post by Erik2 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:57 am

Mojko, I'm impressed.

Mojko
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 458
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:04 am

Re: Afrika Korps beta test

Post by Mojko » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:06 pm

Andy2012 wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:55 am
@Mojko: Whoa. You are one dedicated mofo.
Erik2 wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:57 am
Mojko, I'm impressed.
:D

Don't have much time to play OOB these days, but I would definitely like to finish this campaign. I find it really enjoyable despite some bugs present. It was also my favourite campaign in the Panzer Corps too.

Too bad I can't share replays as the replay functionality is still busted :( .
Author and maintainer of Unit Navigator Tool for Order Of Battle (http://mfendek.byethost16.com/)

GabeKnight
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2352
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:24 pm

Re: Afrika Korps beta test

Post by GabeKnight » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:00 am

The old Malta map (AK v2.x) was huge and one island only with a 30 turn limit. Is the new one really that much harder?

Erik2
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 6281
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:59 pm
Location: Norway

Re: Afrika Korps beta test

Post by Erik2 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:49 pm

GabeKnight wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:00 am
The old Malta map (AK v2.x) was huge and one island only with a 30 turn limit. Is the new one really that much harder?
The new Malta/Herkules as originally a straight port of the PzC-scenario.
But the game mechanisms in OOB meant that the scenario was obviously much harder to win.
So I have altered play-balance slightly (mainly more command points and deployment hexes) a couple of times based on feedback.

Andy2012
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:55 pm

Re: Afrika Korps beta test

Post by Andy2012 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:26 pm

Tried a few more turns on Suez Canal. Even though I still appreciate Erik's efforts here, I think the difficulty here as in most other, previous missions comes not from the tactical or strategic layout and you having to figure out how to beat this and stay in the turn limit. Rather, it is the quite annoying grinding through eternally reinforced RAF and British tank units (both outnumber mine 3:1 now) and the AI liberally adding new rows of units when I defeated some.
Porting this 1:1 (mostly) from Panzercorps and having the AI match me in RP per round but outnumber me from the start means having to kill a substantial amout of units each turn.
In PzC, reinforcements in a mission cost too much (for the AI, too) and combat results are more random, units can be more easily destroyed. So copying a PzC AI force for OoB makes for an exponentially stronger AI foe.
Also, some messages and triggers dont work making me wonder what triggers from the original are there, left out or not working. A tank attack against a rear city is no big issue in PzC, just let heavy inf dig in there and your Stukas take them out. Here, they cut off your front units and your Stukas should stay at home to make room for fighters. That AI fleet is never announced or hinted at, same as the desert counterattack over the canal in the south.
Altogether, this overburdens the mission and makes it play slow and repetitive ('Hey, there's that Spitfire again back on 10 strength.')

This doesnt mean that I dont applaud Erik for his efforts. Thanks, Erik. :D

Erik2
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 6281
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:59 pm
Location: Norway

Re: Afrika Korps beta test

Post by Erik2 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:33 pm

Andy, will it help if I add say 6 air command points and 12 land command points in Suez?
I could reduce the Allied resource income substantially, maybe halve it.
Are there enough resources to use elite repair (yes, I remember the elite repair discussion)? Maybe increase the Axis resource income as well?

I'd do stuff like this for specific scenarios reported as too difficult.
I'd rather not eliminate AI units present in the original PzC scenarios.

Andy2012
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:55 pm

Re: Afrika Korps beta test

Post by Andy2012 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:42 pm

Erik2 wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:33 pm
Andy, will it help if I add say 6 air command points and 12 land command points in Suez?
I could reduce the Allied resource income substantially, maybe halve it.
Are there enough resources to use elite repair (yes, I remember the elite repair discussion)? Maybe increase the Axis resource income as well?

I'd do stuff like this for specific scenarios reported as too difficult.
I'd rather not eliminate AI units present in the original PzC scenarios.
Yes, right now I have ample resources to elite repair. I know, I have to play this differently than the original DLCs.
I think adding to the player core will make this mission too unwieldy and large to handle. That didnt work in Crete back then and spoiled the Sea Lion port for me - just too much to do and no real core army I cared for. I would rather cut out a few nonessential units like the engineer camping the canal (they dont work like PzC for river crossings) and maybe add a message about the flanking attacks from the desert. Also, if you dont want to cut the AI units, just cut their income to 0. That would help a lot. Maybe add aux AA and 2-3 italian inf rearguard units. On top of that, with the original deployment as a victory hex, I am always worried about an attack from the southwest and keep 2 italian units there. Basically, OoB rules about supply have me worried about things that were easy to deal with in the original.

GabeKnight
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2352
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:24 pm

Re: Afrika Korps beta test

Post by GabeKnight » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:53 pm

Yeah, those neverending repairs can be quite frustrating. Good thing is, the "beginning" difficulty doesn't matter with Eriks campaigns. The overpowered 2-3 HP are gone easily, and then the AI's only capable to repair to 10 HP max anyway.

Still, you have to learn to act as the AI a bit and go after every unit until it's destroyed. Only way to make sure it's not coming back to haunt you. You can't allow battered units to regain efficiency and/or strength. Especially with planes. The AI repairs those with priority, and if you don't go after them - even if there's enemy AA at the destination (airport probably) or not - you'll regret it in the long run...

You need a couple of super fast units able to deliver the finishing blow to low HP enemy units. Personally, I use Stuka's for that SOLE purpose. And 2-step recon units or the speedy Ital. tankettes.

And if all fails, just #overtime youself a few extra turns. :wink:

GabeKnight
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2352
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:24 pm

Re: Afrika Korps beta test

Post by GabeKnight » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:43 pm

Playing AfrikaKorps 3.6, and I'm at Herkules/Malta right now. And besides some minor stuff, Erik and Bruce did an amazing job cleaning up the campaign, delivering a very good, solid experience so far. Good action, scripting, difficulty and turn levels, too. Very good RP balance actually! Thank you both very much! :D

With Erik, I'm always watching my supply lines, ready to expect the unexpected while playing... :lol: :twisted:
Some enemy flanking attempt mid-game, para drops deep in my territory, etc, etc... Nice touch!

Speaking of which, the para drop in 7Gazala was very intimidating at first, threatening my main airfields in the region. BUT, without supply, they did not do much. And there's none for them to capture neither. For this to work properly, you have to add some supply dump for them to capture fast, or add some supply hexes near the dropsite via triggers later.
Andy2012 wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:09 am
Then I push along the road towards the airfield in the southeast. In Panzercorps, there is a message that a counterattack from the desert is coming. You need to add this message here, too. Otherwise, I get owned.
Agree. Okay, it was a bit suspicious to be completely undefended, but still it did not feel like the trap it was.

Until now, I've only struggled with 5Dash. Those speedy Brit tanks always cut my supply line with the eastern part of the map, putting half my force into heavy under-supply. While the Tobruk forces, supposedly under siege - but well-supplied for some reason - launched full scale attacks on my positions rather than digging in... :shock: They should be static defending, IMO.
I've restarted/reloaded the first 3-4 turns about four times to make it work. It was borderline frustrating, to be honest. Do you really have to calculate map supply exactly against unit count (CP) so often? Give the cities a big supply stash, unless its WAD.
And those new objectives popping up was confusing, too. I've noticed the silver/golden flags all over the map, but was unsure if it's not some "remnant" of editing. I've planned for a cautious approach within turn limits, taking my time with the advance... and BAM, some new objective: I'll have to capture this and there, too. :roll: :wink: I think I've added myself about 10 turns with #overtime, needed 4-ish of them, eventually.

Andy2012
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:55 pm

Re: Afrika Korps beta test

Post by Andy2012 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:53 am

@Gabe, Erik: There is a new version? Guess I totally missed out on this.

Post Reply

Return to “Order of Battle Series”