Artillery rebalance (post 7.1.6)

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Mojko
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Artillery rebalance (post 7.1.6)

Post by Mojko » Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:28 pm

It seems that some changes slipped under the radar as they were not listed in the change log. Several artillery pieces had their supply cap changed. One of the examples is the dreaded 17 K18 which now costs 4 CPs (5 with transport which is mandatory). I think this particular change is great for the game as I will now actually take into consideration other artillery than 17 K18 :D. There are still some supply cap changes needed. Here is my list:

1 - Costs 6, but should cost 5

Type 1 Ho-Ni I
Type 4 Ho-Ni II
Type 3 Ho-Ni III
Type 2 Ho-I
Type 4 Ho-To
Type 4 Ho-Ro

2 - Costs 3, but should cost 4

155mm M1 Long Tom
Cannone da 149/19

3 - Costs 5, but should cost 4

M3 75mm GMC - just compare this to SU-76

Is this proposed change good for the game? What do you think?

Also, Unit Navigator needs a supply filter.
Author and maintainer of Unit Navigator Tool for Order Of Battle (http://mfendek.byethost16.com/)

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Re: Artillery rebalance (post 7.1.6)

Post by bebro » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:25 pm

The K 18 change is a result from the forum debate. For now the +1 CP goes to towed arty clearly over 150 mm. 155 and 149 are considered as in the general 150er field, so the Long Tom was not changed so far, but for example 7.2 inch UK (=over 180mm) guns got it too.

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Re: Artillery rebalance (post 7.1.6)

Post by kondi754 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:35 pm

bebro wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:25 pm
The K 18 change is a result from the forum debate. For now the +1 CP goes to towed arty clearly over 150 mm. 155 and 149 are considered as in the general 150er field, so the Long Tom was not changed so far, but for example 7.2 inch UK (=over 180mm) guns got it too.
In my historical Mod, all your balancing I turned upside down :twisted:, the largest number of changes were in the artillery, also because Afrika Korps complained the most about shortages of artillery equipment and used a lot of captured guns

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Re: Artillery rebalance (post 7.1.6)

Post by GabeKnight » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:07 pm

2) Agree. Don't care about the caliber in this case, but all arty with range >6 require a +1 supply increase IMO. Did that (and a bit more) in my mod already.
3) Actually, I think it should be vice-versa and the SU-76/M should get 5 supply. :)

And concerning 1), don't know, the old DLCs play well IMO. And as long as there's no new content with the Japs in it, I think it's best not to mess with the unit roster and to not "change a running system" :wink:

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Re: Artillery rebalance (post 7.1.6)

Post by CoolDTA » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:42 am

Agree definitely with Gabe's "arty with range > 6 require a +1 supply increase" and range of exactly 6 should be included.

Re. that Italian cannon with a range of 7: shouldn't that be Cannone da 149/40 considering the range? Kondi?

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Re: Artillery rebalance (post 7.1.6)

Post by WarHomer » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:19 pm

CoolDTA wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:42 am
Agree definitely with Gabe's "arty with range > 6 require a +1 supply increase" and range of exactly 6 should be included.

Re. that Italian cannon with a range of 7: shouldn't that be Cannone da 149/40 considering the range? Kondi?
+1

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Re: Artillery rebalance (post 7.1.6)

Post by kondi754 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:26 pm

CoolDTA wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:42 am
Agree definitely with Gabe's "arty with range > 6 require a +1 supply increase" and range of exactly 6 should be included.

Re. that Italian cannon with a range of 7: shouldn't that be Cannone da 149/40 considering the range? Kondi?
Yes, indeed. However not cannone (cannon) but obice (howitzer) 149mm, range 7 and much higher cost of purchase but amount of supply points (3+1 for transport) the same as a smaller cannon 105mm
I set this value for 4+1 in my Mod :wink:

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Re: Artillery rebalance (post 7.1.6)

Post by CoolDTA » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:49 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:26 pm
Yes, indeed. However not cannone (cannon) but obice (howitzer) 149mm, range 7 and much higher cost of purchase but amount of supply points (3+1 for transport) the same as a smaller cannon 105mm
I set this value for 4+1 in my Mod :wink:
Those CP and higher RP values sound good :) , but what I meant is that there seems to be something wrong. In the game there is Cannone da 149/19, but like you said there's no such thing but Obice da 149/19. This cannot have a range of 7 but 5. The range 7 gun should be Cannone da 149/40.

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Re: Artillery rebalance (post 7.1.6)

Post by 13obo » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:50 pm

Awesome change, thank you! I'll probably still use them but definitely won't be the only artillery unit I get from now on.

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Re: Artillery rebalance (post 7.1.6)

Post by Halvralf » Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:00 pm

My new favourite
hummel.png
hummel.png (14.02 KiB) Viewed 1358 times
"They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance."

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Re: Artillery rebalance (post 7.1.6)

Post by kondi754 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:53 pm

CoolDTA wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:49 pm
kondi754 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:26 pm
Yes, indeed. However not cannone (cannon) but obice (howitzer) 149mm, range 7 and much higher cost of purchase but amount of supply points (3+1 for transport) the same as a smaller cannon 105mm
I set this value for 4+1 in my Mod :wink:
Those CP and higher RP values sound good :) , but what I meant is that there seems to be something wrong. In the game there is Cannone da 149/19, but like you said there's no such thing but Obice da 149/19. This cannot have a range of 7 but 5. The range 7 gun should be Cannone da 149/40.
Cannone 149/40 - you're right but... I set correct values (4 CPs) for Obice 149/19 because it's clear for me that this model refers to Obice (shorter barrel, cannone had longer - see pictures below) and at the same time, I decreased the range to 6
German 10.5cm leFH18 and 15cm sFH18 had range about 10 km (it's 5 hexes in OoB), but Obice 149/19 had almost 15 km, so I set 6 - this is the most powerful Italian gun in the game, so should be "worth" more CPs than the rest
Cannone 149/40 doesn't exist in OoB :? If it was introduced here it should have this coefficient at 7 or even 8 (hexes) I suppose, because it had a range about 23 km in reality
EDIT. And should be more expansive in RPs, of course (now it has 180 RPS, but German 17cm K18 has 250 RPs, for example, and these are comparable cannons :wink: )
obice 149_19.png
obice 149_19.png (7.07 KiB) Viewed 1350 times
Obice_ansaldo_149-19.JPG
Obice_ansaldo_149-19.JPG (15.93 KiB) Viewed 1350 times
Cannone_149-40.JPG
Cannone_149-40.JPG (21.67 KiB) Viewed 1350 times

CoolDTA
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Re: Artillery rebalance (post 7.1.6)

Post by CoolDTA » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:58 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:53 pm
Cannone 149/40 - you're right but... I set correct values (4 CPs) for Obice 149/19 because it's clear for me that this model refers to Obice (shorter barrel, cannone had longer - see pictures below) and at the same time, I decreased the range to 6
German 10.5cm leFH18 and 15cm sFH18 had range about 10 km (it's 5 hexes in OoB), but Obice 149/19 had almost 15 km, so I set 6 - this is the most powerful Italian gun in the game, so should be "worth" more CPs than the rest
Cannone 149/40 doesn't exist in OoB :? If it was introduced here it should have this coefficient at 7 or even 8 (hexes) I suppose, because it had a range about 23 km in reality
EDIT. And should be more expansive in RPs, of course (now it has 180 RPS, but German 17cm K18 has 250 RPs, for example, and these are comparable cannons :wink:


I don't think you can compare the ranges like that (=normal vs max). Yes, normally 15cm sFH18 had a range of about 10 km, but max range is 13.25 km and for 149/19 it was 14.25 km. The difference is rather small. I'd say no (heavy) howitzer should have a range of 6 especially when giving 8 to 17K18. But it is your mod and only you decide. :)

And yes, you are correct: the model is that of the howitzer, but the range tells us that it was supposed to be the cannon (Cannone 149/40). Only one of the mistakes in the equipment file.

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Re: Artillery rebalance (post 7.1.6)

Post by kondi754 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:26 pm

However, I'll insist that maximum range of the Italian howitzer was larger, over 15 km (15.3) according to Italian sources :lol:
Even 13,25km to 15,3km - it's 1 hex for me :lol:
21cm Mrs 18 had a max range of 16.7km and I also raised its range to 6 hexes
This is also due to the specifics of the game, there should be at least one bigger arty gun for each faction :wink: and finally (I suppose it's well-known here :twisted: ) I'm an advocate of compliance with historical facts and Cannone 149/40 has never been produced on a mass scale (obly 60 cannons until October 1941 :shock: :!: ), the Italian Army still used old Cannone 149/35 mostly

Above I give you reasons why I did this in my Mod in such way

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Re: Artillery rebalance (post 7.1.6)

Post by CoolDTA » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:06 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:26 pm
However, I'll insist that maximum range of the Italian howitzer was larger, over 15 km (15.3) according to Italian sources :lol:
Even 13,25km to 15,3km - it's 1 hex for me :lol:
You mean the range of 15320 m? True, but that's after post-war improvements and therefore not applicable here:

L'impiego nel dopoguerra

[...] Con la sesta carica la granata mod 51 poteva raggiungere la gittata di 15,3 km, superiore a quella dell'obice sovietico D-1 Mod 43 da 152 mm, all'epoca arma standard per gli eserciti del Patto di Varsavia.[...]


(from https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/149/19_Mod._1937)

Re. 21cm Mrs 18: yes, you are correct, but I meant "regular" hvy howitzers and not monsters like that one. :shock: Range of 6 is imo well founded. And it is ok to have one "big gun" for each faction though Germany already have the 17K18.

Yes, we know you are an advocate of compliance with historical facts and I for one definitely appreciate that. :D What I said about 149/40 was directed to the original e-file. You can verify it also by checking out the values of Semovente da 149/40 in the e-file (exactly the same naturally). And of that only a single prototype was made!

Finally, your mods (=the historically accurate) are actually the ones I find most interesting. :)

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Re: Artillery rebalance (post 7.1.6)

Post by kondi754 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:39 pm

Semovente 149/40 is noPurchasable in my Mod, because it actually didn't exist like you said
Thanks for your kind words, my project is still growing :wink:
The more I work on it, the more new things I find, create and change

BTW, thanks for instructive discussion about Italian artillery, I don't know Italian language, so I wasn't able to read that the increased range of the howitzer referred to the post-war period
But still over 1 km difference :mrgreen:

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Re: Artillery rebalance (post 7.1.6)

Post by GabeKnight » Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:36 am

I've based some of my changed arty ranges on this table from the Admiral:
:arrow: The Artillery range

artytable.jpg
artytable.jpg (772.93 KiB) Viewed 1218 times

At some point, you can't use an exact linear conversion of meters to hex, otherwise arty like the German 17K18 should have range~13-15hex and the K5 railway gun with 60+km range would be something like 26-30 hex (it's actually done with range=18 in the Anzio scen), which does not work well in this game. So I've taken a rather "logarithmical" approach with arty ranges, and given my "Schienengeschütz" a range of 11, for example.

Also, range=2 might be actually fitting for some arty units, like the StuG or some light towed pieces, but that's not practical in the game neither IMO. Minimum should be 3 hexes. Some exception may be the Nebelwerfer, Wurfrahmen and Katyusha - too strong.
In my mod, I've increased the Katyusha range to 4 for now, but that may have to change back once the Soviet faction becomes playable in the future DLCs. Too powerful for a human player.

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Re: Artillery rebalance (post 7.1.6)

Post by CoolDTA » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:42 pm

GabeKnight wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:36 am
At some point, you can't use an exact linear conversion of meters to hex, otherwise arty like the German 17K18 should have range~13-15hex and the K5 railway gun with 60+km range would be something like 26-30 hex (it's actually done with range=18 in the Anzio scen), which does not work well in this game. So I've taken a rather "logarithmical" approach with arty ranges, and given my "Schienengeschütz" a range of 11, for example.

Also, range=2 might be actually fitting for some arty units, like the StuG or some light towed pieces, but that's not practical in the game neither IMO. Minimum should be 3 hexes. Some exception may be the Nebelwerfer, Wurfrahmen and Katyusha - too strong.
In my mod, I've increased the Katyusha range to 4 for now, but that may have to change back once the Soviet faction becomes playable in the future DLCs. Too powerful for a human player.
I definitely agree with the "logarithmical" approach and min range of 3 sounds ok. In PzC some assault guns have a range of 1, but this game doesn't have rate of fire or arty support, so it wouldn't work. For Katyusha a range of four is imo too much. In all these kind of games I've played it has been 2 - 3 which is good and reasonable for rocket arty. But for you, too: it is your mod and only you decide. :)

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Re: Artillery rebalance (post 7.1.6)

Post by GabeKnight » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:07 pm

CoolDTA wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:42 pm
For Katyusha a range of four is imo too much.
It is for a human controlled unit, definitely. But the AI can't handle such powerful, but fragile, unit correctly in my opinion. Leaves the Katyusha too exposed, and with range=2 it knows no better. I don't think the AI ever landed more than one hit with it, before I made it a priority to destroy the Katyusha as soon as possible. No problem when it's right in front of you. I've played a couple of scens with the range=4 setting, and now that thing finally does some inimidating efficiency damage, safe and sound behind the own lines.

And yeah, you're right. It's my mod and I keep it that way. :wink: :D

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Re: Artillery rebalance (post 7.1.6)

Post by kondi754 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:25 pm

GabeKnight wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:36 am
I've based some of my changed arty ranges on this table from the Admiral:
:arrow: The Artillery range


artytable.jpg


At some point, you can't use an exact linear conversion of meters to hex, otherwise arty like the German 17K18 should have range~13-15hex and the K5 railway gun with 60+km range would be something like 26-30 hex (it's actually done with range=18 in the Anzio scen), which does not work well in this game. So I've taken a rather "logarithmical" approach with arty ranges, and given my "Schienengeschütz" a range of 11, for example.

Also, range=2 might be actually fitting for some arty units, like the StuG or some light towed pieces, but that's not practical in the game neither IMO. Minimum should be 3 hexes. Some exception may be the Nebelwerfer, Wurfrahmen and Katyusha - too strong.
In my mod, I've increased the Katyusha range to 4 for now, but that may have to change back once the Soviet faction becomes playable in the future DLCs. Too powerful for a human player.
Very interesting comparison, definitely I'll use it in future 8)

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