Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

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Molve
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by Molve » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:11 am

Rudankort wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:25 pm
Different players have different preferences. Many people don't want to take any chances and in fact get annoyed when they miss a certain cool unit in their campaign. This is exactly the reason why topics like this exist. This approach is also not so good from replayability perspective, because you always get the same thing on every play through. Ultimately, many people like captured units because they like to have something cool and unique in their cores.

Forcing the enemy to surrender is not equal to "go soft" on him, and no sane commander would insist on fighting and taking losses when he could avoid it and still defeat the opposing enemy force.

There will be enough random events in the new game (in particular, heroes clearly fall into this category). In any event, nothing is set in stone, and we will keep watching player's feedback. Also, this feature will likely be optional, so you can turn it off if you don't like it.
Thanks for replying but I might have failed to make my point clear.

You wrote "Captured units in Panzer Corps campaigns were so popular, we’ve decided to make them a part of core game mechanics. When you force enemy unit to surrender, its equipment is captured and added to a pool."

That is not adding what was so popular to the game. That is taking the name of a popular feature and applying it to some other new feature. To me that is a logical fallacy. It wasn't the name that was popular, it was the "treasure hunt", the unexpected lottery win that was popular.

In this regard, my objection is not to your new game feature. My objection is when you say you're adding it because "captured units were popular".

---

Then you write: "Later you can use this pool to create new units or replenish existing ones for free. This adds yet another tactical consideration: shall I destroy this unit, or try to make it surrender instead?"

As a second, separate, concern, please don't make us want to suppress Tiger tanks or good Soviet self-propelled artillery in order to capture the equipment (when playing US and German commanders, respectively). I genuinely think that's a bad idea - to view enemy units as possible loot boxes.

I strongly encourage you to not add this as some generic play mechanism, always available (and adding a global switch to turn it off isn't enough).

I realize what you want to address are the random nature of the original implementation. I totally get gamers want to "collect them all". This is most easily fixed by marking "loot hexes" on the map - take this hex, capture that unit.

But please do not let us select what we loot ourselves - that misses the point of suddenly getting some quaint French tank or some slow russian AT. The only way to balance this is by YOU (the scenario designer) selecting what unit that will be capturable.

And pretty please do not implement this in a way that makes us minmax how we deal with elite SS Waffen Tiger 2 tanks just to be able to drive them tanks ourselves. That to me feels entirely unrealistic (unless we're talking about tanks/planes in storage, like when Hitler got thise Czech tanks - or, I guess, capital ship naval units). Whatever you make it, please don't make it into a core feature that you take into account when balancing the game.

Thank you for listening.

Rudankort
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by Rudankort » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:52 pm

Molve wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:11 am
In this regard, my objection is not to your new game feature. My objection is when you say you're adding it because "captured units were popular".
My choice of wording stems from the fact that I consider captured units important, while exact mechanics of getting them insignificant.There is no such thing as a "standard" captured units mechanic in Panzer Corps. They existed in unit list, but how to use them was always at the discretion of content designers. In fact, there are more captured units simply preplaced on the maps in Panzer Corps than captured units obtained through a trigger.

---
Molve wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:11 am
I realize what you want to address are the random nature of the original implementation. I totally get gamers want to "collect them all". This is most easily fixed by marking "loot hexes" on the map - take this hex, capture that unit.
In fact no, I don't consider the new mechanic merely a patch to the old one, and there are many reasons why it was implemented this way.

1. In Panzer Corps 2, human-designed content and randomly generated content both occupy an important place. We can no longer rely on scenario designer placing captured units, because with random content there is no designer. We also wanted captured units to feature in single scenarios, Multiplayer games etc.

2. In Panzer Corps, captured units were always a handy work. Not just for content designer, but also for the graphics team making the right icons. This resulted in huge imbalance of captured units. The germans have all kinds of captured tanks in their unit list, the brits have a huge array of captured german panzers. USA? Almost nothing (one captured Panther). Soviets? Zero. Minor nations? No chance. But even minor nations used captured equipment in ww2. A quick search yields many images:
https://cs9.pikabu.ru/post_img/big/2016 ... 671653.jpg (Soviet tank captured by finns)
https://cs8.pikabu.ru/post_img/big/2016 ... 980307.jpg (italian tank captured by australians)
https://cs8.pikabu.ru/post_img/big/2016 ... 625502.jpg (german tank captured by yugoslavs)
The list goes on. With new mechanic, every player and every nation is in equal conditions.

3. New mechanics of captured units is far more complex and far reaching than the old one. For example, now captured equipment is limited, so you need to use it more carefully. Maybe you will want to save your captured units and use in special occasions only. Also, when you see your opponent's high-end unit, you may want to capture it, but your opponent does not want it to be captured and used against him, so this will be an additional consideration for him. Will you outsmart your opponent, or will he outsmart you? That is the question. Especially in Multiplayer this can be very important.

4. Captured units mechanic is synergistic with the new encirclements mechanic, which seemed very fitting to me, because this reflects historical reality.

5. New mechanics rewards mastery of game rules and mechanics, like the role of artillery and strategic bombers, suppression, ammo, encirclements, entrenchment, retreats etc. And I actually want to give the players an additional incentive to learn all these rules. You keep saying how we are going to suppress all those Tigers, but we remember how hard it is to do it. In a recent discussion I posted this image:

Image

Six ISU-152s cannot suppress a single Panther! So yeah, let people try it and learn more game rules in the process.
Molve wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:11 am
I genuinely think that's a bad idea - to view enemy units as possible loot boxes.
They already were loot boxes in Panzer Corps: you could earn a lot of prestige by forcing enemy units to surrender. We are taking it one step further.
Molve wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:11 am
And pretty please do not implement this in a way that makes us minmax how we deal with elite SS Waffen Tiger 2 tanks just to be able to drive them tanks ourselves. That to me feels entirely unrealistic (unless we're talking about tanks/planes in storage, like when Hitler got thise Czech tanks - or, I guess, capital ship naval units).
I kinda understand where you are coming from. On the first glance, the new mechanic might look a bit too "gamey" and strange. But I think that it is actually very realistic. We know very well that captured equipment was very widely used in ww2 by all sides. We also know that enemy units surrendering is never a random event, but a result of your very deliberate actions. The whole point of Blitzkrieg was to cut supply lines and encircle the enemy, which resulted in enemy units surrendering en masse. Finally, captured equipment was never available in unlimited numbers. The new mechanics reflects all these realities.

Main difference with real life is, in real life Tigers were not those super-cool ultimate weapons which they have become in wargames, and they were not produced in enough numbers to affect the course of the war even for the country which originally produced them. So, they were never targeted for capturing specifically.

Molve
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by Molve » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:51 am

Thank you for your insightful reply Rudankort.

In fact, I hope you won't be angry if I say I am thankful I pressed you on this, because now we have lots more context to the feature! ;)

Tassadar
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by Tassadar » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:31 pm

So, I've finally created an account, since in anticipation of Panzer Corps 2 I've figured why not share my own opinions on the dev diaries. Hopefully I won't repeat earleir posts, so I'll try just to focus on some key points in my opinion.

Overrun - It's a feature I've missed so much compared to Panzer General 2. Not only is saves time when trying to mop up wounded units (nothing more frustrating than a 1 power IS-2 running behind the lines to replenish). But it makes tank ammo capacity a much more important factor, that makes units with less firepower, but better ammo capacity ideal for clearing the filed after heavier units do their job. It also simulates the idea of Blitzkrieg much better, adding the immersive aspect.

Splitting units - does this mean units can be merged back? Seems like a bit of a challenge when it comes to calculating experience later.

Rudankort
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by Rudankort » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:02 pm

Tassadar wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:31 pm
So, I've finally created an account, since in anticipation of Panzer Corps 2 I've figured why not share my own opinions on the dev diaries. Hopefully I won't repeat earleir posts, so I'll try just to focus on some key points in my opinion.
Welcome to the forum. :)
Tassadar wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:31 pm
Splitting units - does this mean units can be merged back? Seems like a bit of a challenge when it comes to calculating experience later.
Yes, they can be merged back, and when you do it, experience is averaged (the same way as when you give your units green replacements). But I don't expect the halves of a unit to diverge much in terms of experience in the course of a battle. If you don't merge during the battle, then merge happens automatically before the next mission.

Teku
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by Teku » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:50 pm

New mechanics of captured units is far more complex and far reaching than the old one. For example, now captured equipment is limited, so you need to use it more carefully. Maybe you will want to save your captured units and use in special occasions only. Also, when you see your opponent's high-end unit, you may want to capture it, but your opponent does not want it to be captured and used against him, so this will be an additional consideration for him. Will you outsmart your opponent, or will he outsmart you? That is the question. Especially in Multiplayer this can be very important.
so for a little clarification, how does the capture system in this way work exactly? The pool system i mean. Is it like: Capture x tanks to create y amount for yourself? I like the idea for this and it does expand on it in ways i personally enjoy since im a big ww2 nerd, does the pool account for the different units captured or is it just a flat amount? And when using the captured equipment to make more, is it making more of your equipment or enemies? Like if im playing the garmen and i capture enough t34 tanks would i be able to make my own t34's or would it only make me more panzers? I just want some clarification on it so i know what more to expect from it, since i was an avid fan of capturing units in PC1 and loved challenging myself to see how far i could get with the tanks/planes i captured early on before they were destroyed by better allied/axis units. If i capture enough tankettes from Italy or Poland, could i make them for myself and use them till 1945 hypothetically?

Teku
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by Teku » Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:18 am

Actually, with the way the prestige system like that would be set up, how would one repair/re-equip that unit if it get severely damaged? Would it draw from your own prestige at that point or would you have to recapture more of the same equipment to repair it? And is it at all possible to "upgrade" the unit once made instead of just turning into a generic panzer/sherman unit should enough prestige be gotten?

At the very least is there more verity to capturable equipment than just tanks?

Rudankort
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by Rudankort » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:54 pm

Teku wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:50 pm
so for a little clarification, how does the capture system in this way work exactly? The pool system i mean. Is it like: Capture x tanks to create y amount for yourself?
It is like this: you force X tanks to surrender, and exactly X tanks are added to the pool.
Teku wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:50 pm
does the pool account for the different units captured or is it just a flat amount?
Yes it does. You see each type in Purchase/Upgrade screen individually.
Teku wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:50 pm
And when using the captured equipment to make more, is it making more of your equipment or enemies? Like if im playing the garmen and i capture enough t34 tanks would i be able to make my own t34's or would it only make me more panzers?
Yes you can make T-34s, until you run our of points in the pool.
Teku wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:50 pm
If i capture enough tankettes from Italy or Poland, could i make them for myself and use them till 1945 hypothetically?
Yes, hypothetically you can do this. Note that you won't be able to replace these units for prestige, you will need to spend points from the pool on each replacement. So I would expect that you will run out of these units well before 1945. :)
Teku wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:18 am
Actually, with the way the prestige system like that would be set up, how would one repair/re-equip that unit if it get severely damaged? Would it draw from your own prestige at that point or would you have to recapture more of the same equipment to repair it?
As I said above, replacements consume points from the pool. It does not cost any prestige to use them. You can also "disband" remaining points in the pool for prestige, if you don't need them any more. Then you will get prestige for them, much like you get prestige for forcing units to surrender in PzC now.
Teku wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:18 am
And is it at all possible to "upgrade" the unit once made instead of just turning into a generic panzer/sherman unit should enough prestige be gotten?
I'm not sure that I understood this question. Just for clarification: units which use captured equipment are still your units (belonging to your nation). You can upgrade them to one of your native unit types, and then released points will be returned to the pool. You can take one of your existing native units, and upgrade it to use captured equipment, as long as you have enough points in the pool. Finally, you can upgrade one captured type into another. Thus, you can upgrade a polish tankette into a Char D-Bis (or vice versa). Does this answer your question?
Teku wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:18 am
At the very least is there more verity to capturable equipment than just tanks?
We can control this one a unit-by-unit bases (with a trait), but as things stand now, there are not many limits to what you can capture (apart from infantry). This does tend to clutter up your purchase/upgrade screen a bit (even though these units are in a separate section at the bottom of the list), so maybe we will reduce it a bit. Let's see what beta testers say about it.

Teku
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by Teku » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:21 pm

Rudankort wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:54 pm
Teku wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:18 am
And is it at all possible to "upgrade" the unit once made instead of just turning into a generic panzer/sherman unit should enough prestige be gotten?
I'm not sure that I understood this question. Just for clarification: units which use captured equipment are still your units (belonging to your nation). You can upgrade them to one of your native unit types, and then released points will be returned to the pool. You can take one of your existing native units, and upgrade it to use captured equipment, as long as you have enough points in the pool. Finally, you can upgrade one captured type into another. Thus, you can upgrade a polish tankette into a Char D-Bis (or vice versa). Does this answer your question?
What i meant was, if i were to capture X amount of infantry to make my own unit with it, then capture enough units to make it a grenadier unit, could i do that without having to make a new unit. But that does answer my question.

And thanks for getting back to me on it, it gives me a lot more to look forward to :)

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