Monuments: Worth it or not?

Field of Glory: Empires is a grand strategy game in which you will have to move in an intricate and living tapestry of nations and tribes, each one with their distinctive culture.
Set in Europe and in the Mediterranean Area during the Classical Age, experience what truly means to manage an Empire.

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kvnrthr
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Monuments: Worth it or not?

Post by kvnrthr » Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:12 pm

This goes for any building that gives you both culture and decadence I guess. On the surface it seems to be a good tradeoff of 19 culture (not sure if this varies) for 0.25 decadence. But the decadence calculation is significantly opaque enough for me to be unsure.

I guess if the loyalty of the province is low it will hurt you. And it might hurt you in the short term since HCV is averaged over a long time. But other than that, for no slots it seems like a no-brainer, unless there is something strange happening under the hood.

loki100
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Re: Monuments: Worth it or not?

Post by loki100 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:25 pm

don't forget its a no slot building, which makes it invaluable if you start in a manpower poor region.

In the main, I think players are decadence adverse and that accounts for some of the reported problems with large regions.

in other words, I'd take it, not least you get that 10% rebate on your decadence per turn, the culture builds up nicely and later on you can offset the decadence with other buildings

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Re: Monuments: Worth it or not?

Post by MoLAoS » Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:08 pm

Monuments are worth it on lower difficulty levels, but not higher ones where you get penalties and the AI gets buffs. This is based on the fact that at higher levels you need higher H/D rations to compete with buffed AI while you have been nerfed.

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Re: Monuments: Worth it or not?

Post by Ragu777 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:13 pm

totally worth it
decadence from monument limit by 2.5 (just use x10 from decandence gain) - so it have ratio 4 (base 10 culture without modifer)
it's enough even for suicidal (especially with more cultural modifers)

and it need 0 slots

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Re: Monuments: Worth it or not?

Post by jimwinsor » Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:44 pm

I'm not shy about building these, with zero slots its a great way to help open up Tier II and III Culture buildings while leaving room for expansion.
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shockk
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Re: Monuments: Worth it or not?

Post by shockk » Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:01 am

Yes its worth it, but the 4:1 ration argument is flawed.

Im not sure exactly how loyalty effects at it doesn't specific say but i assume its loyalty/100 * culture. Assuming a large city your probably aiming for around 50 loyalty, so it gives a 2:1 ratio. Depending no the difficulty that may not be good enough to get into the top teir. However with tier 2-3 culture buildings, or with nation multiplier it easily becomes worth while. Also since it free its a great stepping stone to 6 building (which can be an issue for nations with out unique culture buildings). Now if you don't plan to build culture buildings there, it might not be worth it.

Also worth noting its because decadence is a 10 turn timer and culture is a 25 turn timer, its going to hurt before it helps


Also to my knowledge the player doesn't get any penalties at higher levels

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Re: Monuments: Worth it or not?

Post by MoLAoS » Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:45 am

shockk wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:01 am
Yes its worth it, but the 4:1 ration argument is flawed.

Im not sure exactly how loyalty effects at it doesn't specific say but i assume its loyalty/100 * culture. Assuming a large city your probably aiming for around 50 loyalty, so it gives a 2:1 ratio. Depending no the difficulty that may not be good enough to get into the top teir. However with tier 2-3 culture buildings, or with nation multiplier it easily becomes worth while. Also since it free its a great stepping stone to 6 building (which can be an issue for nations with out unique culture buildings). Now if you don't plan to build culture buildings there, it might not be worth it.

Also worth noting its because decadence is a 10 turn timer and culture is a 25 turn timer, its going to hurt before it helps


Also to my knowledge the player doesn't get any penalties at higher levels
Good post. Its not just as simple as divide culture by max decadence.

Starting at D3 the player gets penalties to Progress, Decadence, and Loyalty. Monuments become more of an issue then. Similarly when you enter Glorious the culture to decadence trade off becomes more iffy.

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Re: Monuments: Worth it or not?

Post by loki100 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:27 am

shockk wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:01 am
Yes its worth it, but the 4:1 ration argument is flawed.

Im not sure exactly how loyalty effects at it doesn't specific say but i assume its loyalty/100 * culture. Assuming a large city your probably aiming for around 50 loyalty, so it gives a 2:1 ratio. Depending no the difficulty that may not be good enough to get into the top teir. However with tier 2-3 culture buildings, or with nation multiplier it easily becomes worth while. Also since it free its a great stepping stone to 6 building (which can be an issue for nations with out unique culture buildings). Now if you don't plan to build culture buildings there, it might not be worth it.

Also worth noting its because decadence is a 10 turn timer and culture is a 25 turn timer, its going to hurt before it helps


Also to my knowledge the player doesn't get any penalties at higher levels
You're missing the 10% decadence removal (ok this is not in the manual :oops: ), so that reduces the accumulation of decadence making its gain non-linear. So these won't solve your long term problems but that 10 culture can be a life saver for a small tribal start, esp as they are slot free
MoLAoS wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:45 am
Good post. Its not just as simple as divide culture by max decadence.

Starting at D3 the player gets penalties to Progress, Decadence, and Loyalty. Monuments become more of an issue then. Similarly when you enter Glorious the culture to decadence trade off becomes more iffy.
you keep on making this claim and it remains incorrect, check 4.1.2 of the manual.

and what is D3 for the rest of us?

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Re: Monuments: Worth it or not?

Post by MoLAoS » Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:46 am

loki100 wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:27 am
shockk wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:01 am
Yes its worth it, but the 4:1 ration argument is flawed.

Im not sure exactly how loyalty effects at it doesn't specific say but i assume its loyalty/100 * culture. Assuming a large city your probably aiming for around 50 loyalty, so it gives a 2:1 ratio. Depending no the difficulty that may not be good enough to get into the top teir. However with tier 2-3 culture buildings, or with nation multiplier it easily becomes worth while. Also since it free its a great stepping stone to 6 building (which can be an issue for nations with out unique culture buildings). Now if you don't plan to build culture buildings there, it might not be worth it.

Also worth noting its because decadence is a 10 turn timer and culture is a 25 turn timer, its going to hurt before it helps


Also to my knowledge the player doesn't get any penalties at higher levels
You're missing the 10% decadence removal (ok this is not in the manual :oops: ), so that reduces the accumulation of decadence making its gain non-linear. So these won't solve your long term problems but that 10 culture can be a life saver for a small tribal start, esp as they are slot free
MoLAoS wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:45 am
Good post. Its not just as simple as divide culture by max decadence.

Starting at D3 the player gets penalties to Progress, Decadence, and Loyalty. Monuments become more of an issue then. Similarly when you enter Glorious the culture to decadence trade off becomes more iffy.
you keep on making this claim and it remains incorrect, check 4.1.2 of the manual.

and what is D3 for the rest of us?
It's the third difficulty, Experienced. It clearly says that you get penalties in the 3 areas stated, while the AI gets bonuses in those as well as in legacy.

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Re: Monuments: Worth it or not?

Post by Ragu777 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:52 am

shockk wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:01 am
Yes its worth it, but the 4:1 ration argument is flawed.

Im not sure exactly how loyalty effects at it doesn't specific say but i assume its loyalty/100 * culture. Assuming a large city your probably aiming for around 50 loyalty, so it gives a 2:1 ratio. Depending no the difficulty that may not be good enough to get into the top teir. However with tier 2-3 culture buildings, or with nation multiplier it easily becomes worth while. Also since it free its a great stepping stone to 6 building (which can be an issue for nations with out unique culture buildings). Now if you don't plan to build culture buildings there, it might not be worth it.

Also worth noting its because decadence is a 10 turn timer and culture is a 25 turn timer, its going to hurt before it helps


Also to my knowledge the player doesn't get any penalties at higher levels
4:1 is base
i don't understand why you want 50 loyality on high difficulty - you need 100+ on suicidal and want culture in every region

also you will have some modifers to culture gain, so it can be more higher

and decadence not 10 turn timer - after 10 you will have only 1.6 decandence from monument
you gain half of culture immediately in you CDR, than it linear grow in next 25 turns

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Re: Monuments: Worth it or not?

Post by Ragu777 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:56 am

MoLAoS wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:45 am

Starting at D3 the player gets penalties to Progress, Decadence, and Loyalty. Monuments become more of an issue then. Similarly when you enter Glorious the culture to decadence trade off becomes more iffy.
but in manual there is no penalty to loyalty for player
only AI gain bonuses
i can agree that you gain penalty to progress, because AI have better decadence reduction - so you need higher CDR for progress

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Re: Monuments: Worth it or not?

Post by MoLAoS » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:08 am

Ragu777 wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:56 am
MoLAoS wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:45 am

Starting at D3 the player gets penalties to Progress, Decadence, and Loyalty. Monuments become more of an issue then. Similarly when you enter Glorious the culture to decadence trade off becomes more iffy.
but in manual there is no penalty to loyalty for player
only AI gain bonuses
i can agree that you gain penalty to progress, because AI have better decadence reduction - so you need higher CDR for progress
It is directly stated in the difficulty description in the game itself. If either the game or the manual is not accurate, that is up to the devs to reveal and resolve.

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Re: Monuments: Worth it or not?

Post by Ragu777 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:15 am

MoLAoS wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:08 am

It is directly stated in the difficulty description in the game itself. If either the game or the manual is not accurate, that is up to the devs to reveal and resolve.
oh, i see this
but it only description - there is no difference in loyalty between easy and suicidal, you still have 100 base

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Re: Monuments: Worth it or not?

Post by LDiCesare » Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:55 am

You want 100 loyalty anyway. 50 loyalty is just suicidal, you'll get revolts everywhere, but even at that point, it would be a 2:1 ratio, so it's rather good. In addition, the culture boost is also likely to increase immediately your loyalty if you're below the cap.

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Re: Monuments: Worth it or not?

Post by 13obo » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:37 am

Monument is very much worth it as previous posters have mentioned! It gives you a 2:1 to 4:1 CDR (or even higher if you have % culture-boosting buildings/national modifiers and higher than 100 base loyalty), which is a great trade-off for the small infrastructure penalty. I take it (almost) every time the building shows up.

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Re: Monuments: Worth it or not?

Post by shockk » Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:28 am

The player doesn't get any penalties at higher difficulties (besides the slave movement). The manual clearly outlines this, and iv not seen anything in game to contradict it.

Yes you lose 10% decadence a turn, so its a little longer then 10 turns to get to 2.5 from the monuments.

As for people saying 50 loyalty is unsafe, you have 0% risk at 50 loyalty assuming your not having civil wars. Also not sure what loyalty your expecting to have when you have 30+ pops

Ya when Glorious it may hurt you, i always forget to look at exactly how it effects you. My motto is to avoid Glorious at all cost unless im aiming for teir3, in which case after becoming Glorious i shift 100% of my citizens to culture and avoid taking easy objectives till now to quickly capture, so hopefully im only in it for 5ish turns

At higher difficulties you probably need 2.5+ ratio to be in the top 1/3 nations, so with out modifiers the monuments could slightly hold you back

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Re: Monuments: Worth it or not?

Post by LDiCesare » Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:10 pm

50 loyalty is unsafe because:
1/there are civil wars (but not for everone)
2/there are random events that can lower loyalty so you'll be in revolt risk the next turn if you are at 50 (religious unrest for instance, some slave-related choices)
3/loyalty numbers drop when there are nearby revolts, so having 50 in a border region when there are no revolts nearby means you'll be at 20 or 30 when your neighbour gets a revolt, which is unsafe.
Plus why would you want to waste half of your culture output anyway?

I have very few 30+ provinces in my current game. Their loyalties are 0,72,113 and 83.
I'm obviously working on the 0 province, but it's having some unrest. 113 is thanks to the Circus Maximus. I'm also working on the 72 (getting rid of an usurer, would like to get a basilica, that would bring me to 81). The 83 is also going to have its userer removed and replaced, so 86 is a minimum target, but even a noble district putting me to 100% might be worth it based on the culture output.

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Re: Monuments: Worth it or not?

Post by MoLAoS » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:39 pm

shockk wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:28 am
The player doesn't get any penalties at higher difficulties (besides the slave movement). The manual clearly outlines this, and iv not seen anything in game to contradict it.

Yes you lose 10% decadence a turn, so its a little longer then 10 turns to get to 2.5 from the monuments.

As for people saying 50 loyalty is unsafe, you have 0% risk at 50 loyalty assuming your not having civil wars. Also not sure what loyalty your expecting to have when you have 30+ pops

Ya when Glorious it may hurt you, i always forget to look at exactly how it effects you. My motto is to avoid Glorious at all cost unless im aiming for teir3, in which case after becoming Glorious i shift 100% of my citizens to culture and avoid taking easy objectives till now to quickly capture, so hopefully im only in it for 5ish turns

At higher difficulties you probably need 2.5+ ratio to be in the top 1/3 nations, so with out modifiers the monuments could slightly hold you back
It is literally in the difficulty description for Experienced, D(ifficulty)3. It is incredibly specific. Of course the devs could have messed up. A ton of the little loading screen notes have various semantic and grammatical errors and some of the game descriptions do as well. Are any of the devs native English speakers?

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Re: Monuments: Worth it or not?

Post by Bamilus » Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:56 pm

MoLAoS wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:39 pm
shockk wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:28 am
The player doesn't get any penalties at higher difficulties (besides the slave movement). The manual clearly outlines this, and iv not seen anything in game to contradict it.

Yes you lose 10% decadence a turn, so its a little longer then 10 turns to get to 2.5 from the monuments.

As for people saying 50 loyalty is unsafe, you have 0% risk at 50 loyalty assuming your not having civil wars. Also not sure what loyalty your expecting to have when you have 30+ pops

Ya when Glorious it may hurt you, i always forget to look at exactly how it effects you. My motto is to avoid Glorious at all cost unless im aiming for teir3, in which case after becoming Glorious i shift 100% of my citizens to culture and avoid taking easy objectives till now to quickly capture, so hopefully im only in it for 5ish turns

At higher difficulties you probably need 2.5+ ratio to be in the top 1/3 nations, so with out modifiers the monuments could slightly hold you back
It is literally in the difficulty description for Experienced, D(ifficulty)3. It is incredibly specific. Of course the devs could have messed up. A ton of the little loading screen notes have various semantic and grammatical errors and some of the game descriptions do as well. Are any of the devs native English speakers?
No, they are not.

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Re: Monuments: Worth it or not?

Post by MoLAoS » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:53 pm

Bamilus wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:56 pm
MoLAoS wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:39 pm
shockk wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:28 am
The player doesn't get any penalties at higher difficulties (besides the slave movement). The manual clearly outlines this, and iv not seen anything in game to contradict it.

Yes you lose 10% decadence a turn, so its a little longer then 10 turns to get to 2.5 from the monuments.

As for people saying 50 loyalty is unsafe, you have 0% risk at 50 loyalty assuming your not having civil wars. Also not sure what loyalty your expecting to have when you have 30+ pops

Ya when Glorious it may hurt you, i always forget to look at exactly how it effects you. My motto is to avoid Glorious at all cost unless im aiming for teir3, in which case after becoming Glorious i shift 100% of my citizens to culture and avoid taking easy objectives till now to quickly capture, so hopefully im only in it for 5ish turns

At higher difficulties you probably need 2.5+ ratio to be in the top 1/3 nations, so with out modifiers the monuments could slightly hold you back
It is literally in the difficulty description for Experienced, D(ifficulty)3. It is incredibly specific. Of course the devs could have messed up. A ton of the little loading screen notes have various semantic and grammatical errors and some of the game descriptions do as well. Are any of the devs native English speakers?
No, they are not.
Its possible they misstated the description for D3 then. Alternatively they might have forgotten to change it after an update that altered the modifiers. But it is quite clear that the player gets nerfed.

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