Field of Diplomacy - Calling Players for an MP game

Field of Glory: Empires is a grand strategy game in which you will have to move in an intricate and living tapestry of nations and tribes, each one with their distinctive culture.
Set in Europe and in the Mediterranean Area during the Classical Age, experience what truly means to manage an Empire.

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13obo
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Re: Field of Diplomacy - Calling Players for an MP game

Post by 13obo » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:10 pm

Geffalrus wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:32 pm
Alrighty then - a few words on diplomacy and what was happening.

...
That's a lot of planning for the equivalent of stealing a candy from a baby.

I used the forum messaging but mostly as a way to roleplay and to reply to ledo/devoncop's offers, who were the main drivers behind our alliance. Cudos to those guys for the effort!

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Re: Field of Diplomacy - Calling Players for an MP game

Post by Geffalrus » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:13 pm

Morbio wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:59 pm
In my daily overview (playing but not playing) I saw the Antigonid and Macedonian ships along the coast, but I chose not to tell my 'would-be' Roman ally, because I was 'dead' and thought it would be unethical to aid my friends and snitch on my enemies!

Maybe 'dead' countries should only be able to see the maps with no units. I certainly enjoyed looking at the map and seeing how things were evolving. I wouldn't remove a dead general from the game entirely, because if they resurrect at some point it would be good to have the general back in play... and wrecking havoc with their oppressors!
Oh shit I never considered that possibility! I applaud your restraint, well and truly.

I think it would be great to have a resurrection mechanic for eliminated players. I get that it could be abused........but that's clearly already happening with diplomacy, so it seems only fair. As long as things work within the bounds of the game mechanics, I'm generally fine with it.

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Re: Field of Diplomacy - Calling Players for an MP game

Post by Geffalrus » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:14 pm

13obo wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:10 pm
Geffalrus wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:32 pm
Alrighty then - a few words on diplomacy and what was happening.

...
That's a lot of planning for the equivalent of stealing a candy from a baby.

I used the forum messaging but mostly as a way to roleplay and to reply to ledo/devoncop's offers, who were the main drivers behind our alliance. Cudos to those guys for the effort!
You didn't see the size of that Roman army. That weren't no baby! :P

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Re: Field of Diplomacy - Calling Players for an MP game

Post by 13obo » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:17 pm

I did see them, they were my allies...

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Re: Field of Diplomacy - Calling Players for an MP game

Post by ledo » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:19 pm

I for one used the diplomacy system in some depth. Although I stood by the logic of all of my posts, I tended to pick fights on purpose to draw allies. The 'argument' with Macedonia was carefully orchestrated. In fact, I told Rome and Epirus to back off and not support me, with Epirus playing the noble victim, and Rome reaching out to other nations as neutral/uncertain of Carthage to gauge their reaction, without giving away our informal alliance. The argument did seem to serve its purpose, because Epirus became front page news long enough that we started receiving messages and securing alliances. Shortly after the landing in Italy most nations were on our side, the problem was that none of them were in a position to do anything. The timing of the invasion was excellent for that, because otherwise our interactions with other nations up to that point had already made them tentatively supportive. At first the landing in Italy was a bit of a blessing (I still think we could have held out for a while if we did Devoncop's move into Campania on turn two as he would have destroyed half your army and you would have retreated into the Carthaginians), since it made the argument easier to make, prior to that we were only highlighting the threat but that wasn't enough for anyone to risk war with the Antigonids, and I doubt they trusted me much anyway. The invasion of Italy changed that, and allowed me to put my money where my mouth was publicly, showing I was committed and setting up an all or nothing struggle where the defeat of Rome and Carthage would leave the east helpless and without significant allies. Unfortunately, Rome did not hold out long enough (somewhat my fault) and none of the sympathetic nations in the east were in a good position. To Lysimachos credit, even ill-prepared and completely outmatched he decided to make the only play available to him at that point, and I still agree with his logic, even if the outcome is a loss, since it would be a slow death or quick and glorious one.

Still, I think for most players who played here the meta will be significantly different in another go round. I think we all learned the power of the Antigonids with a strong ally and room and freedom to choose their targets one by one. Although next time we will probably learn new lessons, when the same freedom is given to the Romans or someone else.

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Re: Field of Diplomacy - Calling Players for an MP game

Post by ledo » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:24 pm

In fact, a funny moment was when I had to apologize to 13obo. Being ever the good guy, he started trying to make peace over Epirus on the forums, and I privately messaged him to apologize that I was pushing back on that and explain to him that I was purposefully not letting it go.

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Re: Field of Diplomacy - Calling Players for an MP game

Post by Morbio » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:26 pm

Even with hindsight and the same players I suspect that nothing could be done to stop Antigonids and Macedonia if they chose to ally. The only starting nations that could make a difference are the other Diadochi. I think Rome and Carthage need 50 turns to be in a position to make a difference and the OPMs will never be able to make a difference.

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Re: Field of Diplomacy - Calling Players for an MP game

Post by MARVIN_THE_ARVN » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:29 pm

Interesting to see so much wheeling and dealing, the emails sent to me must have been flagged as spam because I never got any......

:lol:
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Re: Field of Diplomacy - Calling Players for an MP game

Post by Geffalrus » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:31 pm

- On Bactria -

Having finally played them in MP, I now have some opinions. I think they're woefully under-powered. Historically that area was one of the richest in the Hellenistic Era. Trade from the East, fertile valleys, a large population, and a well-established Greek community predating Alexander, all contributed to the wealth of Bactria at game's start. That's not really.......replicated in game. Bactria is sparsely populated and undeveloped. And your early game is rather boring as there's not much to do. In the SP game this is mitigated because it's easier to just sit and hit end turn and wait. But in MP, this is excruciating with the naturally slower turn times.

For my own part, I'm never going to suggest someone play Bactria in an MP game ever again. Even with human Saka and Maurya players, Bactria has nothing to realistically contribute.

I think for the devs, Bactria should be boosted a bit just from a historical accuracy perspective. At the very least, Bactria and some other factions should get some sort of buff in MP since MP and SP occupy two very different play experiences.

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Re: Field of Diplomacy - Calling Players for an MP game

Post by ledo » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:34 pm

Morbio wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:26 pm
Even with hindsight and the same players I suspect that nothing could be done to stop Antigonids and Macedonia if they chose to ally. The only starting nations that could make a difference are the other Diadochi. I think Rome and Carthage need 50 turns to be in a position to make a difference and the OPMs will never be able to make a difference.
I agree to a large extent. I don't think the Seleucids are in a great position early, nor Egypt, nor Lysimachos. And even all three of them, with the problems they have probably couldn't stop both. I think there is a balance to that, in that Macedonia was probably unlikely to win. But I don't think they have that bad a chance that it's not worth trying. I think maybe trying to make a house rule about no endless phony wars for the Antigonids would help somewhat as they'd be forced to war with their neighbours a bit more or face double aging. And even if they win their wars, it forces them to grab more territory than is probably wise. Either way, both diplomatically and decadence-wise I think their gameplay and stability should be by necessity more chaotic than what it was in this game.

Even with the reduced aging, the Antigonids were two objectives from going Old, which was why I was hoping that someone would be able to perform a raptor strike to tip them over. In fact Rome and Carthage had a naval plan involving Egypt (once we could get them more committed) that would take and hold the islands, and perform hit and run attacks on objectives across the map to boost Antigonid aging and regress their government type.
Last edited by ledo on Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Field of Diplomacy - Calling Players for an MP game

Post by MARVIN_THE_ARVN » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:35 pm

Geffalrus wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:31 pm
- On Bactria -

Having finally played them in MP, I now have some opinions. I think they're woefully under-powered. Historically that area was one of the richest in the Hellenistic Era. Trade from the East, fertile valleys, a large population, and a well-established Greek community predating Alexander, all contributed to the wealth of Bactria at game's start. That's not really.......replicated in game. Bactria is sparsely populated and undeveloped. And your early game is rather boring as there's not much to do. In the SP game this is mitigated because it's easier to just sit and hit end turn and wait. But in MP, this is excruciating with the naturally slower turn times.

For my own part, I'm never going to suggest someone play Bactria in an MP game ever again. Even with human Saka and Maurya players, Bactria has nothing to realistically contribute.

I think for the devs, Bactria should be boosted a bit just from a historical accuracy perspective. At the very least, Bactria and some other factions should get some sort of buff in MP since MP and SP occupy two very different play experiences.
As a certain other franchise would say....

So say we all!
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Re: Field of Diplomacy - Calling Players for an MP game

Post by 13obo » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:36 pm

ledo wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:24 pm
In fact, a funny moment was when I had to apologize to 13obo. Being ever the good guy, he started trying to make peace over Epirus on the forums, and I privately messaged him to apologize that I was pushing back on that and explain to him that I was purposefully not letting it go.
I had a good laugh and felt quite embarrassed I was being too "sensitive"!
Morbio wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:26 pm
Even with hindsight and the same players I suspect that nothing could be done to stop Antigonids and Macedonia if they chose to ally. The only starting nations that could make a difference are the other Diadochi. I think Rome and Carthage need 50 turns to be in a position to make a difference and the OPMs will never be able to make a difference.
Agree. Whatever the ultimate planning of either side was, we need to remember that we don't start equal, so whatever diplomatic hoops ledo did (and I'm sure those were significant), they would not be sufficient to beat that large hoplite army.

In fact, another thing we need to remember is how much plains/hilly terrain, which is all of Italy, favours an attacker who will be constantly sieging provinces and thus be on the "attacking" side. If those Seleucid elephants jim had for example had attacked the Antigonids, there would be no way they could be stopped once they arrive in your territory. With good management, the attacker is clearly favoured by the battle odds.

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Re: Field of Diplomacy - Calling Players for an MP game

Post by ledo » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:41 pm

13obo wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:36 pm
ledo wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:24 pm
In fact, a funny moment was when I had to apologize to 13obo. Being ever the good guy, he started trying to make peace over Epirus on the forums, and I privately messaged him to apologize that I was pushing back on that and explain to him that I was purposefully not letting it go.
I had a good laugh and felt quite embarrassed I was being too "sensitive"!
Morbio wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:26 pm
Even with hindsight and the same players I suspect that nothing could be done to stop Antigonids and Macedonia if they chose to ally. The only starting nations that could make a difference are the other Diadochi. I think Rome and Carthage need 50 turns to be in a position to make a difference and the OPMs will never be able to make a difference.
Agree. Whatever the ultimate planning of either side was, we need to remember that we don't start equal, so whatever diplomatic hoops ledo did (and I'm sure those were significant), they would not be sufficient to beat that large hoplite army.

In fact, another thing we need to remember is how much plains/hilly terrain, which is all of Italy, favours an attacker who will be constantly sieging provinces and thus be on the "attacking" side. If those Seleucid elephants jim had for example had attacked the Antigonids, there would be no way they could be stopped once they arrive in your territory. With good management, the attacker is clearly favoured by the battle odds.
Effectively the Seleucids were our only hope. If we could get them to commit while the Antigonids and Macedonia had two armies each in Italy. And the Carthaginian fleet could make it difficult for them to get back. Meanwhile Lysimachos is taking territory and just distracting even if he is easy to defeat, and the Egyptian fleet is sailing, blocking reinforcements to the Levant and Armenia jumps in just to cause havoc, I think with all those simulataneous attacks combined with a truly effective Seleucid attack it might have been too much to handle. Even if they can beat the Lysamachids it ties up an army for 5-10 turns at least. Even if they can beat Armenia that's another army. And with the sealanes dangerous and troop movements requiring scouting and escorts I think it would be enough. Particularly because, as I said, two objectives and the Antigonids start to regress.

Not to mention that they would have to also invade Carthage or I would quickly rebound and with the Avernii invade Italy, or just do a mad dash with a massive escort to the greek islands etc. Basically, the theory was, and I just can't see it being an easy fight, that with everyone jumping on at once, it would just be too many battles in too many places, losing too many objectives and attritioning too many ships and troops. The economy of the combined powers, not to mention the forces, would outnumber the Antigonids, and their ability to strike everywhere would overwhelm them.
Last edited by ledo on Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Field of Diplomacy - Calling Players for an MP game

Post by Geffalrus » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:43 pm

13obo wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:36 pm
In fact, another thing we need to remember is how much plains/hilly terrain, which is all of Italy, favours an attacker who will be constantly sieging provinces and thus be on the "attacking" side. If those Seleucid elephants jim had for example had attacked the Antigonids, there would be no way they could be stopped once they arrive in your territory. With good management, the attacker is clearly favoured by the battle odds.
Elaborate. Plains I get, though they have their........dangers, obviously (generals with +1 att/def for example). But hills give +1 def and reduce frontage from plains. How does that help an attacker? Not saying I avoid hills like Forests, but still.

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Re: Field of Diplomacy - Calling Players for an MP game

Post by 13obo » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:47 pm

That's not the main point of my posts. The point was operation "troll devoncop" was a mostly one-sided conflict.

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Re: Field of Diplomacy - Calling Players for an MP game

Post by ledo » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:48 pm

ledo wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:41 pm
13obo wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:36 pm
ledo wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:24 pm
In fact, a funny moment was when I had to apologize to 13obo. Being ever the good guy, he started trying to make peace over Epirus on the forums, and I privately messaged him to apologize that I was pushing back on that and explain to him that I was purposefully not letting it go.
I had a good laugh and felt quite embarrassed I was being too "sensitive"!
Morbio wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:26 pm
Even with hindsight and the same players I suspect that nothing could be done to stop Antigonids and Macedonia if they chose to ally. The only starting nations that could make a difference are the other Diadochi. I think Rome and Carthage need 50 turns to be in a position to make a difference and the OPMs will never be able to make a difference.
Agree. Whatever the ultimate planning of either side was, we need to remember that we don't start equal, so whatever diplomatic hoops ledo did (and I'm sure those were significant), they would not be sufficient to beat that large hoplite army.

In fact, another thing we need to remember is how much plains/hilly terrain, which is all of Italy, favours an attacker who will be constantly sieging provinces and thus be on the "attacking" side. If those Seleucid elephants jim had for example had attacked the Antigonids, there would be no way they could be stopped once they arrive in your territory. With good management, the attacker is clearly favoured by the battle odds.
Effectively the Seleucids were our only hope. If we could get them to commit while the Antigonids and Macedonia had two armies each in Italy. And the Carthaginian fleet could make it difficult for them to get back. Meanwhile Lysimachos is taking territory and just distracting even if he is easy to defeat, and the Egyptian fleet is sailing, blocking reinforcements to the Levant and Armenia jumps in just to cause havoc, I think with all those simulataneous attacks combined with a truly effective Seleucid attack it might have been too much to handle. Even if they can beat the Lysamachids it ties up an army for 5-10 turns at least. Even if they can beat Armenia that's another army. And with the sealanes dangerous and troop movements requiring scouting and escorts I think it would be enough. Particularly because, as I said, two objectives and the Antigonids start to regress.

Not to mention that they would have to also invade Carthage or I would quickly rebound and with the Avernii invade Italy, or just do a mad dash with a massive escort to the greek islands etc. Basically, the theory was, and I just can't see it being an easy fight, that with everyone jumping on at once, it would just be too many battles in too many places, losing too many objectives and attritioning too many ships and troops. The economy of the combined powers, not to mention the forces, would outnumber the Antigonids, and their ability to strike everywhere would overwhelm them.
then again, as per my previous theory. Once an alliance like that becomes necessary to defeat a power, even if it is a marginally friendly one, it is essential that real preparations start being made, and I think I missed the boat there. I was happy to avoid pushing the point for now, just to avoid turning anyone off, and also obviously, I was careful not to communicate in too much detail my intentions to anyone that might be a loyal ally to the Antigonids or Macedonia. i.e. not Pontus and not Armenia till much later.

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Re: Field of Diplomacy - Calling Players for an MP game

Post by ledo » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:52 pm

But that being said our task was a pretty damn difficult one diplomacy wise. I didn't just need to make peace treaties or vague agreements of some support at some point. I was trying to convince four nations at once to abandon their own needs for consolidation and enemies on other fronts to do a co-ordinated attack that would start a long bloody war that they might not benefit from and might lose, and I needed to do it from turn 1. Again, I think the meta here wasn't really set up for that, neither I or anyone else properly assessed the threat of the Antigonids (maybe the Seleucids, who could come out of this marginally ok though still a bit outmatched). Next time there might be more takers early on to go all out on the Antigonids, particularly following an alliance with Macedonia. As well, I still think the house rule to ensure the Antigonids are all out war or aging might also change the dynamic.

As it was, Rome and Carthage started out on the back foot, diplomatically and militarily we didn't really have enough to offer other than rhetoric. With time it might have been different, with the Roman army quite strong already, but definitely not strong enough for a full frontal confrontation with two powers twice its size while dealing with a 25 stack horde of celticii to its north and at war with three minor tribes.

I've played some pretty effective games of diplomacy in my time, and I can't say I've faced a situation where I effectively had to accomplish so much with so little clout. If Macedonia wasn't an ally I could try to turn them onto the Antigonids, but that is the only other force in the east that doesn't have 99 problems before they even think of the Antigonids.

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Re: Field of Diplomacy - Calling Players for an MP game

Post by Geffalrus » Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:14 pm

Nevermind, things have advanced quite a bit, so I'll just jump ahead to the end.
Last edited by Geffalrus on Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Field of Diplomacy - Calling Players for an MP game

Post by devoncop » Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:29 pm

Really interesting discussion guys.

Just caught up with it all !

The bottom line is that Macedonia was the difference....the "swing state" for our US readers :D

No Macedonia riding shotgun for the Antigonids and that would have been a very different game. I have no doubt that Rome and Carthage could have fought off the Antigonids if they had launched the attack alone even bearing in mind the nuisance independents I was still battling until they peaced out.

In essence this war was won by some cunning Antigonid diplomacy from the start in selecting a strong military ally with a player controlling them who played it straight. Another player or a different ally and things may have been different.

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Re: Field of Diplomacy - Calling Players for an MP game

Post by pnoff » Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:55 pm

Heya, International Bad Boy here :evil: :twisted: 8) :P

Sorry, I don't have much time so I will write long and out of character instead of short and in character. It would be somewhat harsh on people and I would have preferred to write in character later, but discussion moves so fast I think I have to put out my position now, since I already feel like it's too late.

-) On killing people.

It is sad that players have to go, but there would be no thrills without it. I play under assumption that people playing underdog nations know what they are signing for. Remember how the map looked IRL. Killing Rome is a public service with their position and cheaty legions. Especially high priority for me since (unite italy)->(go for greece) is first lesson in Rome 101.

-) Antigonids.

Geffalrus is strong, but so what? Seleucids are strong too, for example. I thought Carthage&co was just writing propaganda, but it looks like they actually got high on their own supply. The diadochi mechanics trick is sad, but it basically means that he can be Glorious when other people are stable (there is some doubt in that, see discussion here https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=534 I hope if this gets fixed then Antigonids thingy will get fixed too, sorry Geffalrus :P ), which is a boon but not apocalyptical.

-) My alliance with Antigonids.

I will tell you a secret: before Rome and Carthage had a meltdown about poor late Morbio I was not even that close to Geffalrus, then it became my best strategy and I'm glad for that because it is all fun and profit so far. Nobody ever messaged me in private and tried to flip me over to their side. I don't want to be small player sandwitched between Antigonids and Rome and whoever. Antigonids grew, but I grew too, Rome is no more. Sorry you were not included in my plans, but I don't have to, and you did not ask (upd. that's for everybody who complains, not just Rome).

-) Italian war

I feel uneasy discussing peoples skills out of character, but since my own strategy is called into question I hope I will be forgiven.

I think the public grossly underestimates how dangerous the invasion of Italy was. Being out of supply is deadly. Yes, we brought huge forces, but we had to. We were discussing possible defeat up until my victories, which didn't have to happen, see below.

Rome severely underutilized Garrison mechanics. Just sit in a fortress for a turn and recover. Then you can be attacking side which is very beneficial against our armies. I won by a thread and any setback would have been a catastrophy. This also would have allowed for Carthage to come help properly, and maybe Avernii and certainly Lysimachos, who already went all in anyway.

Also, these velites should be replaced with light cav (although I understand if you have gripes with such minmaxing, so that is a minor point).

-) Avernii

I don't see any in game reasons for Avernii to be so sad. He has whole Gaul, Britain and possibly Spain to expand. Nobody wants to invade his forests, Greek phalanxes suck in forests. I actually sent him peace proposal before because of that. Just accept my proposal and do your thing instead of throwing a tantrum. Again, I suppose the western block wants to turn me on Geffalrus. How creating insecurity on my sensitive borders supposed to help with that? Avernii can win by legacy condition because iirc he will control all his objectives and infinite territory.


tl;dr
Stay calm and keep playing. Use diplomacy, not propaganda. Put your nation first, this is both in the spirit of the game AND in the spirit of time period. Leave altruism for IRL.

Probably forgot two thirds of the points I wanted to make, but that is it for now. :lol:
Last edited by pnoff on Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:08 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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