CSI Sweep: Germany East 1941-42

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bru888
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Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1941-42

Post by bru888 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:35 pm

Streets of Moscow v. 2.7 (continued)

Briefing: ". . . occupy the Soviet capital!" (lower case "c" and substitute "a" for "o" - interestingly, over here, the "Capitol" refers specifically to "The government building in Washington where the United States Senate and the House of Representatives meet" - please don't ask me why we spell it differently - but in general, "capital" is the word used for "A seat of government" as well as its other meanings)

See my comments in the Smolensk post about the need for AI primary objectives and the way "Sov" triggers need to be designed in order to provide for a human Defeat. See the parenthetical sentences in the beginning of the Ostrov post for additional comments.

You have "-1" (repeating) frequency for all of the primary objectives - which works fine in a back-and-forth battle but unfortunately does not provide for Defeat as mentioned above - but not for the secondary objectives. Here, the arrangement works fine because they have nothing to do with determining Victory or Defeat, just with whether they are Major or Minor, so all of these triggers should be "-1" frequency as well (except for the "Sov Southern-X" triggers; those are "one and done"):

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The "Capture rail depots" objective points to seven hexes but only six are addressed by this trigger; the missing one is off to the right (the arrow is from the objective link). Notice that there is no "Sov Rail depot-7" trigger for that spot, either:

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I have the same observation about the "Bridges" triggers here as I did in Belgrade. But oddly enough this particular set of "Bridges" triggers has more of a chance of being employed! That's because the second condition in all of these is set for the Axis alliance like the first condition; usually, the second is set for the Soviets:

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Unlike the usual arrangements, this set of triggers says "If there is a German land unit within two hexes of the bridge, and if there is a German land unit on the bridge, blow the bridge!" This is actually more likely to happen, IMO, then requiring the Soviet unit to be on the bridge at the time. I have been advocating removing that requirement, but it's your choice. However, this particular set of "Bridges" triggers needs to be edited if you intend to keep the Soviet condition.

Heh, great minds think alike; I see you already have this similar photo of a KV-1 with German markings; well, use mine in the previous scenario if you want some variety:

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T34 Event Popup message: "A number of T34s in good condition are captured." (no "s" after "condition")

Waffen SS Event Popup message: "Waffen SS troops have been released to your command. (drop the second "w" from "Waffwen")

By the way, these additional Waffen SS CP's and RP's in Turn 2 are in addition to those added by "Dialog," correct? Just checking.
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Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1941-42

Post by bru888 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:16 pm

Demyansk Pocket v. 2.7

See my comments in the Smolensk post about the need for AI primary objectives and the way "Sov" triggers need to be designed in order to provide for a human Defeat. See the parenthetical sentences in the beginning of the Ostrov post for additional comments.

My supply Rule of Thumb is of limited use here; you are intentionally short of land supply in the pocket although there are Ju52 supply planes on the way that may change the equation. I noticed that deployment is only in the pocket itself. Not to the west in German-held territory at all?

There is no such image in the folder. Maybe the image below is suitable if you don't have one in mind:

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Firovo.png
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Firovo is a neat little vignette; I just have a minor quibble with it:

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The mission is to "Raid Firovo," not "Raid and Hold Firovo." The Germans fulfill the mission by taking the hex and, if they can hold it, receive a +5 supply bonus (that could be a bit more, considering the hex starts out as 200 supply). The objective is marked as completed and the two specialisation points are awarded. The quibble is, a raid is a raid. The "Ger Firovo" turns on the "Sov Firovo" trigger which will fail the objective (even after the goodies are awarded) if the Soviets retake Firovo. That doesn't seem right.
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Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1941-42

Post by bru888 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:40 pm

Demyansk Pocket v. 2.7 (continued)

You broke the string here with the Dialog/Transfer triggers. Up until now, it's been the transfer of 1 RP and 4 CP's but now it's 2 RP's and 8 CP's. The transfer is botched though; the Germans give up nothing in RP's:

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This whole "Supply" idea is brilliant. It just needs a bit of work. Well, a small amount, then more if you are willing.

First, am I delusional or does this module not even work? Nobody has complained about this? I'm racking my brains trying to figure out what is supposed to happen the way it is designed and the answer is nothing. I believe I know why.

Here is the first plane before it lands. Note the supply levels (including the 3 supply tagged on the plane itself - Gabe explained this below):

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Here is the supply situation after it lands. Note that the supply plane has has actually decreased the land supply surplus by 3! That is, it doesn't lend +3 supply, it costs -3 supply. But that's neither here nor there (it's also wrong - see what Gabe said, but don't miss what I say next here); the important thing is that it did nothing else to the levels of available land supply:

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I am rather sure that's because you have two different Ju52's in the scenario. The planes in flight are "Ju 52 [Supply]" while the triggers are looking for "Junkers Ju-52" - two different aircraft as seen by the game:

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The player is not supposed to be able to land the plane, anyway. It is supposed to be removed. When I substituted regular Junkers Ju-52's for the [Supply] planes on the map, I got the triggers to work. This is just after one of them has "crash-landed" (more on that in a minute):

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Notice that the land supply has gone up. By 27, not 30, so that -3 effect is still in play somehow (+87 + 30 - 3 = 114) but again, that's immaterial (again, it's explained below). It's a bit messy - the air and land supply in that hex overlap - but it is working as you intended, I believe. I'm still shaking my head, though. Nobody has noticed this wasn't working? Did you revise it recently?

There are two other things I would do differently, one very minor and one quite major and requiring a lot more work (shut your eyes at that point if you don't want to hear it):

Minor - Instead of killing the supply planes, I would have them Exit. Less messy:

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Major - Instead of having all the Ju52 supply planes on the map in the beginning of the scenario, arriving over the pocket like rush hour at Gardermoen Airport, start with one and spawn the rest every five or six turns or so (maybe less - you be the judge - I say more about this below).
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Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1941-42

Post by bru888 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:51 pm

Demyansk Pocket v. 2.7 (continued)

Two more things about the "Supply" module. First, these "Airstrip-X lost" and "Supply reset" triggers here:

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They don't actually do anything for supply because the underlying hexes don't have supply to begin with; each 10 air supply is coming from the airstrip, not the hex. The destruction of the airstrip reduces the air supply. You should leave the "Set Trigger State" / turn off "Supply carrier-X" effect on the "Airstrip-X lost" triggers, of course, but the "Supply reset" trigger can go altogether unless there is something I am missing.

The other thing is, I wish there was a way to mark which airfield had been land-supplied so that the player does not err and fly another Ju-52 to the same airstrip. In the past, in this situation, I recommended spawning a hangar as a marker each time but you cannot do so here. But each trigger only fires once, so if the player does make a mistake, he merely flies on to the next airstrip. In this scenario, he has enough time to do so.
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Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1941-42

Post by GabeKnight » Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:13 pm

bru888 wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:40 pm
Here is the supply situation after it lands. Note that the supply plane has has actually decreased the land supply surplus by 3! That is, it doesn't lend +3 supply, it costs -3 supply. But that's neither here nor there; the important thing is that it did nothing else to the levels of available land supply:
The "Ju 52 [Supply]" variant is quite the unique unit in the game because it actually provides land supply (from the air). You can sustain an infantry unit behind enemy lines with this baby.
Therefore the +3 surplus in the scen. The actual land supply from the towns/cities is 84 not 87. Then the other calculation 84+30=114 makes sense again.

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Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1941-42

Post by bru888 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:56 am

GabeKnight wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:13 pm
bru888 wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:40 pm
Here is the supply situation after it lands. Note that the supply plane has has actually decreased the land supply surplus by 3! That is, it doesn't lend +3 supply, it costs -3 supply. But that's neither here nor there; the important thing is that it did nothing else to the levels of available land supply:
The "Ju 52 [Supply]" variant is quite the unique unit in the game because it actually provides land supply (from the air). You can sustain an infantry unit behind enemy lines with this baby.
Therefore the +3 surplus in the scen. The actual land supply from the towns/cities is 84 not 87. Then the other calculation 84+30=114 makes sense again.
Gabe! You are not the dumbest guy that I have ever met on the Internet. Indeed, you seem to be one smart feller! :wink:

Yes indeed, that does explain things. The pocket begins with a +84 land surplus. When the Ju 52 [Supply] plane arrives, it boosts the surplus to +87 temporarily but when it crashes (or exits, my preference), the surplus reverts to +84. (All the more reason for Erik to use regular Ju-52 Junkers in the scenario, aside from the trigger/unit mismatch).

So this supply plane is supposed to hover in the area in order to continuously provide +3 supply? Not very realistic, I'd say. Let me test what happens when it lands.

EDIT: Yep, that's how it is, alright. To test, I turned off the entire Supply folder. Here's a supply plane just before it reaches the pocket. Land supply surplus +84:

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Just after crossing into German airspace, the land supply surplus has gone up to +87:

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After landing the plane (or presumably after it crashes, exits, or flies away), the surplus goes back down to +84:

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Thanks, Gabe. So by all means, Erik, I would go with regular Ju-52 Junkers planes on the map; it's the easiest way to fix the unit/trigger mismatch anyway.
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Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1941-42

Post by bru888 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:59 am

Demyansk Pocket v. 2.7 (continued)

Going back to that comment about perhaps staggering the arrival of these planes rather than having all of them on the map at once, if this was my scenario, this is what I would do:

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Only one plane on Turn 1, the next a few turns later, then another few turns later, etc. That's the easy part. The hard part is judging what "a few turns" means. Too many turns, and you make the scenario too difficult to win. In turn, maybe you could adjust for this by bumping up the starting land supply a bit, or the amount of supply each plane brings. Another consideration is whether there is enough fighter support to do escort five supply planes one at at time. I leave this to you.

If you wish, feel free to use all, some, or none of these materials:

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Air Supply on Approach

A Ju-52 Junkers transport is on approach. Give it fighter cover and escort it to a landing at one of the vacant airstrips in the Demyansk Pocket. Supply will increase by +30 in the pocket if this Ju-52 lands safely.
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Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1941-42

Post by bru888 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:51 am

Demyansk Pocket v. 2.7 (continued)

One last thing about the Supply module, and it's important. [Notice how my post count goes up when I get excited about something here? It's that, and the fact that there is a tipping point for the number of attached images, which cannot be edited as you know.]

This is "vanilla" Demyansk - your original version. Note this plane is one hex short of an airstrip, but the "Land" button is lit:

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Here is the supply situation (+84 + 3 = +87 as explained above)"

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Here is the situation after the plane lands, the button pressed by an unsuspecting player; the plane is housed in the airstrip and the supply is back to where it started - your trigger was thwarted:

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Erik gets nastygrams in his campaigns thread and everybody looks like this: :(

I believe the remedy is simple. Bump the Distance on all "Supply carrier-X" triggers from 0 to 1. The player will never get a chance to use the "Land" button at all and the triggers will work as intended. Plus, it may be just a tiny bit of help to the player when planes end up just a hex short of airstrips at the end of their movement.

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Well, I have beat Demyansk to death, no? On that note . . .

Thread to be continued . . .
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Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1941-42

Post by bru888 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:51 pm

Vitebsk v. 2.7

The prize is "A group of T34/41s captured from the Soviets." Did you want to mention it here?

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For the secondary objectives, all of the "Sov" triggers merely re-open the objectives. If the Soviets are still sitting on the objective hexes when any other VP is captured, they will fire once and be moot thereafter. This type of AI secondary objective triggers is useless unless you envision a "back and forth" situation whereby each change of possession fires one trigger or the other, repeatedly. In this scenario, there are 20 turns. The human player is going to be hard-pressed in this time just to capture these positions and when they do, they get their rewards. Usually that's the end of it unless you do have that VP-swap idea in mind. If not, then these triggers are superfluous. If yes, then they need to be marked as frequency "-1."

I believe the Exit Hexes are missing for this trigger; the five hexes marked with secondary VP flags:

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This accounts for Bobster's comment, "Vitebsk - All trains were in the correct locations in the south of the map but no achievement given for the secondary obj."

No image associated with this Event Popup:

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Also, for the Firovo escapade in Demyansk Pocket, you required all primary objectives to be in hand before enabling the objective. Here, only five of the six primary objectives are required to be in hand (the airfield hex is omitted) on Turn 15. Only five turns to accomplish both secondary objectives. Intentional?
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Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1941-42

Post by bru888 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:26 pm

Vitebsk v. 2.7 (continued)

I have the same observation about the "Bridges" triggers here as I did in Belgrade.

Up until now, you have been setting this "Dialog" trigger for "Turn = 0." I believe you do this so that the option comes up during the Deployment Phase, which makes sense when outfitting the core before the scenario. That works, even though you don't usually select an Alliance (you may want to get into the habit of doing so in order to make things definite). Here, though, it's set for "Turn = 1" and when I ran the scenario, the dialog does not appear:

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We talked about this somewhere else: An Event Popup message is open to everybody (unless it's set to be exclusive) so it lingers through all the Turn Starts in a single turn. This is not apparently so with a Dialog Popup. The AI goes first in this scenario; therefore, its Turn Start comes first in Turn 1. The AI "sees" the message, the dialog is done, and it does not appear for the human player in Turn 1. When I tagged the grey alliance on that trigger, it did show but Turn 1 is probably not your intention. Better to restore this to "Turn = 0."

There's one of these situations in AI Team 13:

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This is the culprit; he belongs in AI Team 15:

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Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1941-42

Post by bru888 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:35 pm

Kharkov v. 2.7

See my comments in the Smolensk post about the need for AI primary objectives and the way "Sov" triggers need to be designed in order to provide for a human Defeat. See the parenthetical sentences in the beginning of the Ostrov post for additional comments.

That's the placeholder/reminder statement that I have been using but specifically, these triggers need to be reviewed as to whether they do the job. For example, this one; why would it be set to repeat if it is evaluated only at scenario-end?

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The Soviet counterparts, they are set merely to re-open the German objectives:

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If you are going to have "Sov" secondary objective triggers that reverse the completion of "Ger" objectives, then you should use "-1" frequency:

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Well, I've said all these things before and I am sure that you get the idea by now. The idea of what I am recommending, that is. Going forward, I will return to using the placeholder/reminder statements. There are 14 more scenarios to go through and I have a hunch that your eyes are already glazing over.

I tell you, I am going to patent this supply Rule of Thumb! (Yes, you and other readers probably had a grasp of this before but for me it has been a revelation!) Sure enough, as Bobster said, "Kharkov, Simferopol and Sevestopol Assault- Insufficient supply to deploy all CP's." It's true enough here and I'll be looking for this situation in the other two scenarios:

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It would be best to add +15 supply to cover this shortfall and the +4 that we have seen possible with specialisations. Well, to be exact, +13 but +15 is a round number. There is the +5 needed as shown above but add +4 for German specialisations and +4 for Waffen SS specialisations. Yes, we need to consider the Waffen SS in this regard; since the Waffen SS is active from the start in this scenario and they are qualified for War Economy (+2) and Female Factory Labor (+2) from the beginning of the campaign, they start this scenario with 28 CP's:

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Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1941-42

Post by bru888 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:25 am

Kharkov v. 2.7 (continued)

The mission is "Do not lose more than 1 air unit" but this trigger allows 3 to be lost before firing:

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No image associated with this Event Popup:

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That "Check Unit Count" condition includes all Soviet units, by the way, since there is no Unit Definition.
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Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1941-42

Post by bru888 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:00 am

Simferopol v. 2.7

Every time I see the primary objectives as "Hold all X objectives at scenario end," it's a relief, I must say, especially after a scenario like last one. There are probably reasons why primary objectives are listed and defined separately in certain scenarios but they make your job much harder. Only you know what you intend, so you must work it out to your satisfaction.

As anticipated, the map needs at least +2 supply to accommodate assigned CP's and specialisation CP's that surely have been purchased by now:

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With this scenario, we are back to this situation which is not optimal:

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That is because this is set for Scenario Start; I recommend that you follow your usual procedure with "Turn Start / Check Turn / Turn = 0":

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Once again, the Germans get away "scot free" in the transfer:

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Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1941-42

Post by bru888 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:31 am

Sevastopol Siege v. 2.7

This effect rewards a specialisation point to the Kriegsmarine?:

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No image for this Event Popup:

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More importantly, there is a logic issue with that trigger. The Germans start in possession of Simferopol and its airfield. The trigger requires that the player also hold the other 8 primary VP's to enable the secondary objective. The issue is, if the human player is doing well enough to take all of those other objectives, it is likely that he is still holding Simferopol and its airfield. In that case, the scenario is over because the primary objective is completed. I bet most players never see the secondary objective and don't know it's there.

Heh. Now, we know there is something wrong here as a certain balance is not evident! (The trigger taking -24 command points from the Germans is missing.):

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Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1941-42

Post by bru888 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:20 am

Sevastopol Assault v. 2.7

See my comments in the Smolensk post about the need for AI primary objectives and the way "Sov" triggers need to be designed in order to provide for a human Defeat. See the parenthetical sentences in the beginning of the Ostrov post for additional comments.

Cutting it too fine on the land supply (just +5 added should do) and air supply is definitely short:

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This persistent error again:

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Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1941-42

Post by bru888 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:09 am

Voronezh v. 2.7

ORPHAN! The first one that I have found in this campaign. I am so happy - I thought I was losing my touch:

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Land supply looks like it will be significantly short, given German and Waffen SS specialisation CP's. I figure an additional +15 will cover, based on what we have discussed previously:

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Uneven swap here; the deal is "You can transfer 3 resource income pr turn and 18 Land Command Points from Wehrmacht to Waffen SS" but the trigger gives the Waffen SS 24 CP's:

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Thread to be continued . . .
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Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1941-42

Post by bru888 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:44 pm

Novoanninsky v. 2.7

As Bobster noted, "Insufficient supply to deploy all CP's" when CP's from specialisations are taken into account. I would say +5 should cover it:

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He also mentioned, "Ended early with one Primary obj still to capture." We've seen this type of thing before; it's because Novonikolaevskiy is also a primary VP so when 5 of the other six primary objectives are taken, Novonikolaevskiy is the sixth and that activates this trigger:

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Suggestions:
1) Make it "Value > 6" which is the same as "Hold Novonikolaevskiy and capture the other six primary VP's."
2) Get rid of the "-1" infinite frequency settings.

Mission Outcomes: For Draw and Minor Victory, the comments include references to "Operation Fall." That's like saying "Operation Case" in English; the proper phrase is "Fall Blau."

For reasons stated previously, I recommend that you follow your usual procedure with "Turn Start / Check Turn / Turn = 0":

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Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1941-42

Post by bru888 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:24 pm

Ilovlya v. 2.7

Supply is going to be short in this one, too. Map land supply surplus +100 whereas land CP's 98 + 4 specialisation CP's = 102. Air supply is also short with +20 on the map and 27 air CP's in hand (unless you intend the player to immediately take the nearby Soviet airfield).

Dwightd said this in your thread, confirmed by Bobster: "I never lost the city in the primary objective, but did not get credit at the end of the scenario. It went the full number of turns." That is simply due to this; without a trigger to complete the objective, it must be marked as such from the beginning (which is possible because it is not the only primary objective):

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But if those guys had not encountered that problem, they would have been complaining again about "Ended early with one Primary obj still to capture." As with Novoanninsky, Lyubimovskiy is also a primary VP so when 4 of the other five primary objectives are taken, Lyubimovskiy is the fifth and that activates this trigger:

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Instead, make it "Value > 5" which is the same as "Hold Lyubimovskiy and capture the other five primary VP's." (As I mentioned a great while ago, you do have the option of leaving the trigger alone and changing Lyubimovskiy to a secondary VP - you can do so here because you are not counting secondary VP's for one of the secondary objectives - or even a plain old capture VP - the choice is yours.)

For reasons stated previously, this trigger is superfluous unless your intention is back and forth and merely be holding Pan'shio at the end of the scenario. If so, then the "-1" repeating frequency is necessary but be aware that the specialisation point will be rewarded again with "Ger Pan'shio." So much better if secondary objectives are plain and sweet, one and done:

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- Bru

bru888
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Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1941-42

Post by bru888 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:33 pm

Buzinovka Depot v. 2.7

Supply is going to be short in this one, too. Map land supply surplus +105 whereas land CP's 104 + 4 specialisation CP's = 108.

You're giving the player a "free ride" on this one, perhaps:

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The mission is "Capture all Buzinovka Depots" but you define this as destroying the lend-lease trains that they contain. You point to nine of these depot hexes on the map but only eight of them contain trains. If you intend to include the ninth, easternmost depot in the mission, there should be a ninth train placed in it. On the other hand, the briefing says "Your objective is to not only capture all of your objectives, but to also secure all 8 Buzinovka Depots" so maybe instead remove the secondary VP flag from that hex and don't link to it from the objective.

All of these Soviet activation triggers are actually requiring NO Germans to be at Novolyapichev/AF1/AF2/Nariman:

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Don't worry about this; you have a couple of empty hangars on the map also in this team and that doesn't affect anything as they disappear anyway when the scenario starts:

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(I didn't mention it then but the same thing occurs in Sevastopol Assault except there, the extra units are supply ships. Again, no effect on play.)

I do have an aesthetic comment about Buzinovka. Panzer Corps graphics are crude by OOB standards but their map did locate these train depots near city or town hexes:

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Whereas, with your map, all of these depots look like they are stuck in the middle of open fields:

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and if you look carefully enough, three depots and trains don't even have railroad access (highlighted and circled; not shown is the "ninth, easternmost depot" mentioned above, also missing tracks but maybe, as I mentioned above, you don't want to include that hex as a depot):

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Even today, Buzinovka is a relatively small town:

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but if it was important enough as a railroad hub to be an objective 77 years ago, I would venture to say that it was at least a small town then, too. Which leads me to my recommendations to connect the railroad to the outlying depots and to sprinkle some "European Village/Town" hexes along the roads and rails. Maybe some of these Decorations as well:

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bru888
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Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1941-42

Post by bru888 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:36 pm

Storming Stalingrad v 2.7

All of the Soviet aircraft are airborne to start the scenario, but none of them are assigned to an AI team. This accounts for Bobster's comment "Russian Air doesn't move, not even to land once they are out of fuel."

In addition to those orphans, here are three more (highlighted and circled):

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As for land supply, it looks tight in the northwest but we should have enough overall because some German deployment is apparently expected in the separate Italian sector to the southwest where there is plenty of additional supply. (Better deploy there, since one set of primary VP's is in that sector!)

And yes, once again, we see the reason for this comment by Bobster: "In the end, I could only capture three of the six objectives but got the Major anyway because we already start with three." That's because the three airfields in "Defend all airfields at all times," as primary VP's, count toward this trigger condition:

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Suggestions:
1) Make it "Value > 8" which is the same as "Defend all airfields at all times and capture the other six primary VP's."
2) Get rid of the "-1" infinite frequency settings.

The objective is "Do not lose more than 4 Italian units" but this trigger condition allows 6 to be destroyed before failing; it should be set for "Amount > 4":

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There is this error again:

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