What does "Scenario turn limit" mean, exactly?

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bru888
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What does "Scenario turn limit" mean, exactly?

Post by bru888 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:10 pm

Allow me to poll the experts in our community with this question. (Don't be shy, step right up! :) )

For a long time, I have been operating under the probably mistaken assumption that "Scenario turn limit" means "end of scenario," no matter when it ends. Now, as a result of looking over something that Erik made recently, I am thinking it is quite literal. That is, "Scenario turn limit" is the number set for "Turn Limit" in Settings. If the scenario ends before that number of turns, the trigger will never fire.

Sure, perhaps this has always been your understanding, it being quite obvious to you. If you feel that way, please say so. Nicely, if you can. :wink:

This trigger is from Carentan, in Erik's US Corps 44-45 campaign. He has it set for counting down armored units still alive in order to reach zero:

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He also has a "Turn Start / Check Turn" condition set for "Scenario turn limit" which I think caused the issue that I was looking at (I advised deleting "Check Turn" and changing this to "Combat Event"):

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Before now, I looked at "Scenario turn limit" to be synonymous with "scenario end" but the following test proves me wrong.

The last tank is about to be clobbered:

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On the next turn, the secondary objective is not awarded. I did not expect it to be because the scenario was not over:

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The final primary objective falls:

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And the scenario ends, without the secondary objective being awarded:

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Why? I now think it's because it's only turn 12 and the trigger is set to fire at Turn 24, the "Turn Limit" set for this scenario. No green check, no Major Victory.

Anybody have thoughts? Has this indeed been common knowledge that I am only catching up to now? Because if it is true that "Scenario turn limit" is the same as "Turn Limit" and not end-of-scenario, then I'd like to know for my own work and for when I'm asked to do CSI sweeps.

Basically, then, "Scenario turn limit" would be good only for awarding AI objectives whereby the human player has used up every turn in the Turn Limit without achieving one or more primary objectives. At that time his objective(s) should be marked as failed and the corresponding AI objectives as completed so that the player tastes the bitterness of Defeat! Or the designer wants the player to play out all of the turns before primary objectives are evaluated for some reason.

Thanks for any contribution that you would care to make.
- Bru

GabeKnight
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Re: What does "Scenario turn limit" mean, exactly?

Post by GabeKnight » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:13 am

bru888 wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:10 pm
Anybody have thoughts? Has this indeed been common knowledge that I am only catching up to now? Because if it is true that "Scenario turn limit" is the same as "Turn Limit" and not end-of-scenario, then I'd like to know for my own work and for when I'm asked to do CSI sweeps.

Basically, then, "Scenario turn limit" would be good only for awarding AI objectives whereby the human player has used up every turn in the Turn Limit without achieving one or more primary objectives. At that time his objective(s) should be marked as failed and the corresponding AI objectives as completed so that the player tastes the bitterness of Defeat! Or the designer wants the player to play out all of the turns before primary objectives are evaluated for some reason.
That's about it. "Scenario turn limit" means (literally) the number set for "Turn Limit" in the scen settings = playing all turns disregarding achieving objectives meanwhile. As a result, awarding secondary objectives at scen turn limit without the primaries being awarded only at the end also, makes no sense.

And the designer may "want the player to play out all of the turns before primary objectives are evaluated" for reasons like defensive scenarios (e.g. RedStar/Raseiniai scen)

bru888
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Re: What does "Scenario turn limit" mean, exactly?

Post by bru888 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:57 pm

I am thinking of all the situations that I probably overlooked while under this misconception. At least I will know what to look for, proactively for new business and retroactively as old issues arise. Thanks.

Erik, I'll go back over the scenarios in Germany West 1944 to see if this situation occurs. Already I have encountered it in Failaise.
- Bru

conboy
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Re: What does "Scenario turn limit" mean, exactly?

Post by conboy » Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:46 am

Bru,
I'm not sure if I understand the subtleties of your question, but my take on the trigger setting is "Scenario Turn Limit", meaning when the end of the turn on the "Turn Limit" setting in the Scenario Settings tab.

So if you are making an attack scenario, then one ought to set the Primary Objectives for <Turn Limit (should be integer less than or equal to Turn Limit). That way the player can wrap it up when all the Primaries are achieved. It's incumbent on the scenario designer, then, to present opportunities for all Secondary Objectives to be taken during the pursuit of the Primary Objectives, so that they don't end up with a smashing early victory that ends the game before the Secondary Objectives are achieved.

If it's a defensive scenario, the Primary Objectives should be set for =Turn Limit.

I also think that means, if the home team is ahead going in to the bottom of the last turn (in a defensive scenario), it still has to take its turn, because the turn limit has not been reached, even though this is against the fundamental principles of baseball. You can't lose, but you still gotta bat...

At least that's how I see it. Yet, intuition is a bountiful source of disappointment with the OoB Scenario Editor.

conboy

bru888
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Re: What does "Scenario turn limit" mean, exactly?

Post by bru888 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:14 am

"Scenario turn limit" can be used for any primary objective but yes, it would tend to be for two situations:

1) "Hold at all costs until the end" - that is, a defensive scenario.
2) "Time's up! Did the human player achieve his primary objective? If not, he fails and the AI achieves its objective instead."

The important thing is, "Scenario turn limit" appears to be quite LITERAL. If the Turn Limit is set for 24 turns, then the trigger with the "Scenario turn limit" is looking for Turn 24. My mistake was in thinking that "Scenario turn limit" also meant "when the scenario ends, even if it's early." That apparently is not true.

I am going to be reviewing everything that I have done, and everything that I have swept, to see where this misconception has affected my work and advice.
- Bru

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