Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.4

[JimmyC]

For Sealion, the royal navy is acting much more aggressively compared to previous versions. In the prior version they were so passive, but in 2.0 the capital ships try to force the channel, whilst the destroyers raid all along the coast of Netherlands/Germany/Denmark. Its much more realistic, albeit can still be gamed by just blocking the choke point of the channel with a uboat. Congrats McGuba for improving their response.

Unfortunately something seems to be wrong with the Torch trigger (i think). Although i captured London in mid '42, Torch still activated. I`m pretty sure Torch shouldn't activate in the first place seeing as i had captured London, right? Or do you need to capture the whole of the UK?

I found it annoying that the new mine type becomes hidden again if you move out of LOS. As you can't choose the path that units take it is a bit frustrating. Makes s-boats more useful now through.

[McGuba]

Unfortunately something seems to be wrong with the Torch trigger (i think). Although i captured London in mid '42, Torch still activated. I`m pretty sure Torch shouldn't activate in the first place seeing as i had captured London, right? Or do you need to capture the whole of the UK?

The Torch landings cannot be stopped by the invasion of Britain. It was mainly a US invasion and although historically most of the ships came from England, as far as I know a sizeable part of the fleet came directly from the US. Therefore I deducted that a possible invasion of Britain should not have a great effect on it.

However, in a future version I might modify some of it as I think in case of a German invasion of Britain prior to the Torch landings, the US should send some help there to strengthen the defenses. In that case, some or most of the invasion fleet should head to Britain instead.

I found it annoying that the new mine type becomes hidden again if you move out of LOS. As you can't choose the path that units take it is a bit frustrating. Makes s-boats more useful now through.

It might be worth making notes of the coordinates of these mines and if the path of a ship crosses then have to be avoided even if it takes two turns. Other than that I think these are necessary as in the current game system the other moored mines are not deadly enough, they mainly just block and restrict the movement of naval units, when in fact naval mines did inflict some serious damage and losses in the war. For example in the Channel Dash both the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau hit mines, even though the Germans did their best to check and clear their routes prior to the operation. Also, naval mines caused heavy losse to Soviet submarines in both the Black Sea and Baltic Sea. I guess most Soviet submarine losses were due to naval mines. These can only be simulated by the new naval mines as they can actively attack both survace ships and submarines (given that PzC v1.31 exe is used, as recommended).

[JimmyC]

The Torch landings cannot be stopped by the invasion of Britain. It was mainly a US invasion and although historically most of the ships came from England, as far as I know a sizeable part of the fleet came directly from the US. Therefore I deducted that a possible invasion of Britain should not have a great effect on it.

However, in a future version I might modify some of it as I think in case of a German invasion of Britain prior to the Torch landings, the US should send some help there to strengthen the defenses. In that case, some or most of the invasion fleet should head to Britain instead.

For some reason I thought that Torch wouldn’t trigger if you captured at least 1 major city in the UK. But I agree with your reasoning to activate it regardless given that it was mainly US troops. It would be nice if the Axis player could get a little more notice/warning though. Historically did the Axis get wind of Torch before it commenced? I was just so massively caught out this time, that I am unsure if I can even reach Tunis with any troops before the Americans arrive (will play some more tonight, so lets see).

It would actually be quite an interesting (and realistic) alternative to Torch if the US instead aimed to reinforce the UK. You would have to be careful though to not make it too hard as it could result in Sealion just being impossible.

It might be worth making notes of the coordinates of these mines and if the path of a ship crosses then have to be avoided even if it takes two turns. Other than that I think these are necessary as in the current game system the other moored mines are not deadly enough, they mainly just block and restrict the movement of naval units, when in fact naval mines did inflict some serious damage and losses in the war. For example in the Channel Dash both the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau hit mines, even though the Germans did their best to check and clear their routes prior to the operation. Also, naval mines caused heavy losse to Soviet submarines in both the Black Sea and Baltic Sea. I guess most Soviet submarine losses were due to naval mines. These can only be simulated by the new naval mines as they can actively attack both survace ships and submarines (given that PzC v1.31 exe is used, as recommended).

Yeah it’s a real pain, especially as I didn’t realise the importance of sboats and didn’t take much care of them. I agree again with your reasoning, but it can be very frustrating especially when trying to ship troops to Tunis – there are so many potential routes but for some reason the vessels always want to go through the minefields!! I must be on an old version (not 1.31) as although I get the option to attack subs with this mine type it doesn’t work.

[uzbek2012]

Play on version 1.32 of every two of the flights ( with the Inscription "/nocache" made but it does not help !

http://beutepanzer.ru/Beutepanzer/main.htm

P.s. Prokhorovka. 1943. New data
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10. ... ccess=true

[JimmyC]

For some reason I thought that Torch wouldn’t trigger if you captured at least 1 major city in the UK. But I agree with your reasoning to activate it regardless given that it was mainly US troops. It would be nice if the Axis player could get a little more notice/warning though. Historically did the Axis get wind of Torch before it commenced? I was just so massively caught out this time, that I am unsure if I can even reach Tunis with any troops before the Americans arrive (will play some more tonight, so lets see).

I ended up making it to Tunis in time by flying troops in and using them to hold off the Americans until i could bring in further reinforcements via naval transport. I ended up sacrificing a destroyer to destroy the submerged mines off Malta as it was just too annoying having my transports always want to pass through them when they were invisible.

[auda]

I just recently found out about this mod and installed it.
Mr. McGuba, this is great, I'm really enjoying it.
Including Deducter's modifications is a nice touch.
Also the unit models and sounds! So great, really immersive.
The map is also very well made.
The battle of France map (the breakthrough the Ardennes) is a bit narrow, but it's not an issue.
I did find the Allied air power a bit overwhelming though, especially when I need four fighters so shoot down one enemy fighter or bomber.
As far as I read, the French fighters historically were not as powerful and many were not operational, but I could be mistaken.
Great work!

[McGuba]

I did find the Allied air power a bit overwhelming though, especially when I need four fighters so shoot down one enemy fighter or bomber.
As far as I read, the French fighters historically were not as powerful and many were not operational, but I could be mistaken.

It looks like the French Air Force did quite well against the Luftwaffe:

the Armée de l'Air performed far better than expected, destroying 916 enemy aircraft in air-to-air combat during the Battle of France, for a kill ratio of 2.35:1, with almost a third of those kills accomplished by French pilots flying the US-built Curtiss Hawk 75, which accounted for 12.6 percent of the French single-seat fighter force.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... Air_forces


As for the French Bloch MB.152 fighter:

While they were considered to be outmatched by the faster Messerschmitt Bf 109E, the pilots of Bloch MB.152s destroyed at least 188 enemy aircraft, for the loss of about 86 Blochs. They proved to be tough aircraft, able to withstand considerable battle damage, rapidly reach high speeds during a dive, and functioned well as a gunnery platform.[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloch_MB. ... al_history


And also:

Actually, there are several historians who point out the magnitude of the Luftwaffe's losses during the 1940 campaign in the west.

For example, E. R. Hooton, in Phoenix Triumphant p. 267-268 lists Luftwaffe losses as 1,428, 0f which 1,129 were lost due to enemy action. Hooton goes on to list 1,092 aircrew killed, 1,395 aircrew wounded, and 1,930 aircrew missing. Corresponding French losses were 574 a/c lost in the air (of which 174 were lost to Flak), 460 aircrew killed and another 120 taken prisoner. RAF losses were 959 aircraft (of which 477 were fighters and 381 bombers) and 912 aircrew killed or missing (of which 312 were pilots) and another 184 aircrew wounded.

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=111632

So it looks like the Luftwaffe and the Allies lost about the same number of aircraft in this campaign, however, the Allies lost many of their planes on the ground, which makes the 2 to 1 kill to loss ratio in the air in favour of the Allies plausible. Therefore I decided to make the Allied air units quite strong in this scenario to reflect it.

[George_Parr]

Well, air-losses tend to be all over the place depending on which source you look at

"L'action de l'armée de l'air en 1939-1940 : facteurs structurels et conjoncturels d'une défaite" from Philippe Garraud, an in-depth look at France's performances in the air until the armistice, comes up with 500 German planes destroyed (by the French), not the 1000 that were claimed by the forces themselves at the time, at the cost of 1500 to 2000 French planes.

The weirdest part about the l'armée de l'air is that it didn't even have the majority of its plains available for the combat. They still had thousands of planes sitting around in southern France and North Africa when the armistice happened. God knows why they never managed to get them to where the action was in 9 months of war...


The most over the top numbers really come from the ground support planes though. Doesn't matter if its for the Germans, Soviets, British or Americans, they all claimed ridiculously high kill-counts of tanks and other vehicles that go so far beyond reality that it isn't even funny anymore. E.g. Allied pilots claimed to have killed over a thousand AFV in Normandy, later it turned out that only about 100 vehicles may actually have been destroyed from the air. Or German and Soviet accounts from Kursk; Germans claimed hundreds of kills from the air, post battle analysis suggests that it was less than 100. Soviet pilots claimed to have killed 270 and 240 tanks respectively from two tank divisions in mere hours, both times that's 3-4 times more tanks than either unit even had available, and neither reported any significant losses due to air attacks and were operating normally afterwards.

[McGuba]

"L'action de l'armée de l'air en 1939-1940 : facteurs structurels et conjoncturels d'une défaite" from Philippe Garraud, an in-depth look at France's performances in the air until the armistice, comes up with 500 German planes destroyed (by the French), not the 1000 that were claimed by the forces themselves at the time, at the cost of 1500 to 2000 French planes.

But I guess the majority of the French aircraft losses were abandoned planes during the retreat and not combat losses. Another source gives 320 (French) aircraft shot down including those shot down by Flak and 240 aircraft destroyed on the ground by the enemy. https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 0#p1962656

Yet another sources gives 535 French aircraft destroyed in combat. https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 0#p1964121

And it looks certain that the Luftwaffe lost over 1100 planes in combat in the same period. So even if we accept that the French pilots overclaimed (which is of course quite possible and happened to all nations) and only destroyed half of these (leaving the other half to the RAF) it still means about 1:1 kill to loss ratio. Which is still fairly good given that they had less capable planes, less experience and poorer tactics. But they had the advantage of fighting over their own land similarly to the RAF in the Battle of Britain. And their main targets were unescorted German bombers, which were relatively easy prey.

The weirdest part about the l'armée de l'air is that it didn't even have the majority of its plains available for the combat. They still had thousands of planes sitting around in southern France and North Africa when the armistice happened. God knows why they never managed to get them to where the action was in 9 months of war...

I guess the did not have enough pilots to fly them. Also poor logistics and strategy to concentrate them, same as with their tanks.

The most over the top numbers really come from the ground support planes though. Doesn't matter if its for the Germans, Soviets, British or Americans, they all claimed ridiculously high kill-counts of tanks and other vehicles that go so far beyond reality that it isn't even funny anymore.

Yes, it has been discussed here in these forums already. WW2 planes were not very effective against tanks and massive overclaims were frequent. However, they were fairly effective against the soft trucks that carried the fuel, ammunition, spare parts, supplies etc. of an armoured division and destroying these could effectively eliminate the armoured unit as a fighting force. A large portion, if not the majority of German tanks in 1944-45 were abandoned and/or destroyed by their own crews after breaking down or running out of fuel, rather than by enemy action. And in many cases it was the result of enemy aircraft destroying the supply trucks and thus they indirectly caused the destruction of lots of German tanks.

[Uhu]

Hmm,
after the first turn, where the Axis units have not yet encircled the Soviet forces west of Minsk (farest Axis ground units are at 101:33, 101:34 and 101:40) - air units are of course more east), still I got two several times the messages, that they surrendered already after the first (Allied) turn. How can be this possible? This happens really rare (two times from dozens), but still it is a little strange.

[uzbek2012]

Author you have a great mod ! Tell whether the Brazilian units ?
http://union.4bb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=634&p=12#p110265

[McGuba]

Hmm,
after the first turn, where the Axis units have not yet encircled the Soviet forces west of Minsk (farest Axis ground units are at 101:33, 101:34 and 101:40) - air units are of course more east), still I got two several times the messages, that they surrendered already after the first (Allied) turn. How can be this possible? This happens really rare (two times from dozens), but still it is a little strange.

Yeah, I think I know what causes it, will try to fix it.

Author you have a great mod ! Tell whether the Brazilian units ?
http://union.4bb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=634&p=12#p110265

Yes, I know about the limited Brazilian contribution. They had an expeditionary force in Italy, like one division. I was thinking to add one Brazil infantry in 1944, maybe will do so later. But to be honest, I was just too lazy to add another nation only for one single infantry unit to be used in the last 15-20 turns.

[uzbek2012]

Author you have a great mod ! Tell whether the Brazilian units ?
http://union.4bb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=634&p=12#p110265

Yes, I know about the limited Brazilian contribution. They had an expeditionary force in Italy, like one division. I was thinking to add one Brazil infantry in 1944, maybe will do so later. But to be honest, I was just too lazy to add another nation only for one single infantry unit to be used in the last 15-20 turns.
[/quote]


To be lazy is a sin friend ! ))) Translation Russian !
https://raznoe-m.livejournal.com/3966.html

[bobtheflob]

First of all, thank you for all the time and effort you've clearly put into this amazing mod. I have one question about my game I was hoping you could answer:

The Allies just conquered Tunis. Normally I try to prevent that, but this game I wanted to experience Husky. For two turns now, I've received a notification that my units on the coast of Sicily and Italy have received damage from (apparently invisible) Allied ships. Is that just telling me that I need to pull those units back before the invasion can happen?

[JimmyC]

@bobtheflob - I believe that the invasion will go ahead anyway, regardless of whether you pull back or not. It seems most (but not all) of the coastal hexes in sicily are subject to bombardment resulting in your units losing 2 strength per turn.

When i did Husky in an old playthrough (v1.09) i occupied most of the coastal hexes and just sucked up the bombardment damage as it restricts their landings and allows you to punish their transports with air/naval. If you use cheap Italian infantry it is relatively cheap to reinforce them back to full strength too.

[Uhu]

Yes, all the beach hexes in the direction of Tunis are dangerous hexes. You loose 3 strength/turn. Also you cannot by units on the island, only in "core" cities, but you know probably this already. At Normandy, it will be the same, that several beach hexes are dangerous.

First of all, thank you for all the time and effort you've clearly put into this amazing mod. I have one question about my game I was hoping you could answer:

The Allies just conquered Tunis. Normally I try to prevent that, but this game I wanted to experience Husky. For two turns now, I've received a notification that my units on the coast of Sicily and Italy have received damage from (apparently invisible) Allied ships. Is that just telling me that I need to pull those units back before the invasion can happen?

[bobtheflob]

Thanks all. I had several turns of bombardment. Maybe it lasted so long because of how quickly the Allies captured Tunis. I had pulled out of Africa, so the Brits made it there within a couple of turns of Torch.

I was prepared for Normandy though and pulled my forces back. Usually I am more aggressive and have bypassed Husky and D-Day by seizing Tunis and Britain, but I wanted to see what it was like to be forced to repel the operations.

[jeffoot77]

hello McGuba,

After played the 2.0 version, i have one or two suggestions for your amazing mod. i don't know if someone has already proposed it : (sorry for my school bad english

- 1 : Always no possibilities to buy new units in 41 at the begginning of barbarossa : i had used cheat code and add 20 core units to buy some extra fighter and some extra anti aircraft in france. why not the possibility to buy at least some units at the begginning of the mod??

- 2 : i played safety until leningrad and try a siege (blockade) for the first time of the city : i occupied all the marked hex : if there are some effects on the town, how know it? why not showing the effetcs? like a message : " leningrad is under blockade! "

- 3 : i wanted to send mass paratroopers on caucasus but we can"t buy paratroopers ( like in v 1.9 )! why not ??

- 4: i wanted to invade turkey or spain, but always not possible : why not the possibility to invade theses countries: you just have to add some neutral units , haven't you?

At his time i m on turn 20 and i take a lot of pleasure to play your mod. The changes in version 2.0 are awsome: i like all !
I play very slowly : my goal is to hold on the 99 turns and i will add 99 turns more at the end with cheat code to achieve the victory ...

thanks for this great mod , i hope you will make one day a mod with the entire world with pacific theatre !

[McGuba]

Hi, thanks for you feedback!

- 1 : Always no possibilities to buy new units in 41 at the begginning of barbarossa : i had used cheat code and add 20 core units to buy some extra fighter and some extra anti aircraft in france. why not the possibility to buy at least some units at the begginning of the mod??

The mod starts 1941 with the historical number of units. The Axis had insufficient number of fighter planes to cover all fronts and it is represented here as well. The player has to choose where to focus.

- 2 : i played safety until leningrad and try a siege (blockade) for the first time of the city : i occupied all the marked hex : if there are some effects on the town, how know it? why not showing the effetcs? like a message : " leningrad is under blockade! "

There is no message but the player can see if he has the units in place or not. And there is no immediate effect, the player has to wait several turns after which the defenders of the city start to lose some strength points periodically. After 1-2 years of continuous blockade the defenders lose enough strength which makes the attack easier. However, if the Soviets manage to lift the siege even for just one turn the defenders would not lose strength in that time period. Then the siege has to be restarted again and a longer wait may be necessary.

- 3 : i wanted to send mass paratroopers on caucasus but we can"t buy paratroopers ( like in v 1.9 )! why not ??

I do not think that it was possible to purchase additional paratrooper units in any of the previous versions. The reason for that is in 1941 there was only one German paratrooper division, 7th Air Division, or Flieger-Division (out of a total number of more than 200 German divisions active at that time). The second paratrooper division was only raised in late 1943, which was followed by several more, but these were only used as ground units as the German paratroopers performed their last strategic parachute drop in the invasion of Crete in spring 1941. After the heavy losses suffered at Crete Germans were reluctant to risk another major airborne invasion. From 1944, German paratroopers were not even trained as paratroops due to the deteriorating strategic situation and the lack of air superiority and fought as infantrymen. These were paratroops in name only for propaganda reasons. In the end, like ten such "paratrooper" divisions were raised.

- 4: i wanted to invade turkey or spain, but always not possible : why not the possibility to invade theses countries: you just have to add some neutral units , haven't you?

In PzC there is no such thing as "neutral" unit, units can either be Axis or Allied. So I would need to add several passive Allied units to these countries. In a future version I may add this possibility though, but I would rather stay in the historical path.

For example, if I make these countries technically Allies, the real Allies would start to use Spanish and Turkish airfields to refuel their air units which would be unhistorical. Then the Axis player would be forced to invade them, when historically there was no such necessity.

I play very slowly : my goal is to hold on the 99 turns and i will add 99 turns more at the end with cheat code to achieve the victory ...

Although it is possible to increase the number of turns, this mod is set to end in turn 99. After that there would be no more events, Allied reinforcements, prestige income etc. etc.

[jeffoot77]

thanks for your answer.

"The mod starts 1941 with the historical number of units. The Axis had insufficient number of fighter planes to cover all fronts and it is represented here as well. The player has to choose where to focus."

--> ok, but the player start with more than 5000 prestige and cannot spend it ! why not the possibility to spend this prestige now ? ; it is very frustrating! and move some planes is too long, france is attacked in the first turns ! The player can't choose where to focus in the first turns .


"There is no message but the player can see if he has the units in place or not. And there is no immediate effect, the player has to wait several turns after which the defenders of the city start to lose some strength points periodically. After 1-2 years of continuous blockade the defenders lose enough strength which makes the attack easier. However, if the Soviets manage to lift the siege even for just one turn the defenders would not lose strength in that time period. Then the siege has to be restarted again and a longer wait may be necessary."

--> so, no possibility to warn the player if siege is working? at the end of the siege , soviets try to lift the siege and it is very difficult to keep all the hex. I think it is too long and too difficult.Ok, it is historical but it is not normal that soviets units could repair themself during the siege ! and it is not normal that artillery or marat/ fortress go on firing during the siege! A suggestion is to limit at least artillery under siege: no more ammo during the siege after 2 or 3 turns!


"The reason for that is in 1941 there was only one German paratrooper division"
--> ok you want also to respect historical events but the player has less possibilities of gameplay ... The mod should be played not just with scripts and historical events. The player should have the possibility to send some paratrooper where he desire. It is like the possibility to buy any available units like destroyers. why player can't purchase any destroyer if he has money ?

"but I would rather stay in the historical path"
--> you should let the possibility to the player to do what he would like to do. The mod could have then so many posibility to play with it! what if i invade spain? what if i invade turkey? that change not the historical events. If the player could invade spain, he can also invade gibraltar . If it is annoying you, why not let the choice at the beginning of the mod with all the forbidden countries to be accessible or not ? spain and turkey should obviously be allied with germans ( with no units in the countries. )

"After that there would be no more events, Allied reinforcements, prestige income"

--> i know but i will continue to play if i don't manage to win in 99 turns . No more prestige for me after but no more prestige for allied too. the challenge will be to (re)conquer all Europe.