Range.

PC : Turn based WW2 goodness in the mold of Panzer General. This promises to be a true classic!

Moderators: Slitherine Core, Panzer Corps Moderators, Panzer Corps Design

Post Reply
stormbringer3
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:00 pm
Location: Staunton, Va.

Range.

Post by stormbringer3 »

When I have an artillery with a +1 range I hope for an A+3 as my second hero. If a second R+1 appears is that worthwhile or too much of a good thing?
Thanks for any opinions.
captainjack
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1908
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:42 am

Re: Range.

Post by captainjack »

I've had 2 range heroes. They are very good for counter-battery and for suppressing AA,, also for forcing surrender of soft or lightly armoured units. While it's tempting to go for a big gun, these roles suit lighter guns with decent Rate of Fire since you want a lot of suppression rather than a few kills (and the higher ammo count means more shooting and less reloading). You also have some other interesting options like converting to a 3 range Stug3, 4 range 75mm or nebelwerfer etc.
The 3A plus range is probably better than 2R but you can have some fun with 2R.
RVallant
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 232
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:12 am

Re: Range.

Post by RVallant »

2R artillery heroes can probably go behind your ground AA units and bombard over them, your 'front' artillery and then beyond the defensive unit. That can mean you can use them to fire when you need to reload the frontline artillery etc and you don't have any risk from air attack either.

On the attack they'll allow you to get an earlier shot off some days if they're self-propelled. :)
captainjack
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1908
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:42 am

Re: Range.

Post by captainjack »

I hadn't considered very long range SPArt (other than Stugs) due to the lower ammo on most SP units but a fast 5 range sp gun would make a very large part of the battlefield risky, at least for soft targets. There's always something new to learn.
hugh2711
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Posts: 612
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:45 pm

Re: Range.

Post by hugh2711 »

Much to my surprise I once had TWO +2 range heroes on 2 wurfrahmens. It was really bizarre. I do think the heroes come in batches in games, not so random. I have also had occassionally +2 range heroes on towed 17" or sig 38's. I tend to run with 4 towed and 4 mobile arty in GC
MaxF
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun May 21, 2017 10:47 pm

Re: Range.

Post by MaxF »

I just got my first +1R hero and have it on a towed 15cm.
I'm very tempted to have it on a Niebelwerfer 15cm! when it will become available.
Also tempted to have it on a StugIII, but that's ok also without range, until the soviets get too powerful tanks (best thing is to have 2 StugIII together so they help each others).

Range is also useful on a Flak88, which makes it a 5 hexes range including the 1 movement, practically a 11 hexes wide!
But you can get the same range with +1movement.
In my last full GC East, I had 1 Flak88 + 1 15cm, both with +1 movement (without transport)
goose_2
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Posts: 3207
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:22 am
Location: Winterset, Iowa
Contact:

Re: Range.

Post by goose_2 »

MaxF wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:01 pm I just got my first +1R hero and have it on a towed 15cm.
I'm very tempted to have it on a Niebelwerfer 15cm! when it will become available.
Also tempted to have it on a StugIII, but that's ok also without range, until the soviets get too powerful tanks (best thing is to have 2 StugIII together so they help each others).

Range is also useful on a Flak88, which makes it a 5 hexes range including the 1 movement, practically a 11 hexes wide!
But you can get the same range with +1movement.
In my last full GC East, I had 1 Flak88 + 1 15cm, both with +1 movement (without transport)
+1 Range Niebelwerfer's or Wurfrahmen's are both great useful artillery for shredding soft and suppressing hard units. Enjoy
goose_2
Lutheran Multiplayer Tournament Organizer. :-)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRHQShaOv5PWoer6cP1syLQ
heinzrondorf
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Posts: 116
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:02 pm

Re: Range.

Post by heinzrondorf »

MaxF wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:01 pm I just got my first +1R hero and have it on a towed 15cm.
I'm very tempted to have it on a Niebelwerfer 15cm! when it will become available.
Also tempted to have it on a StugIII, but that's ok also without range, until the soviets get too powerful tanks (best thing is to have 2 StugIII together so they help each others).

Range is also useful on a Flak88, which makes it a 5 hexes range including the 1 movement, practically a 11 hexes wide!
But you can get the same range with +1movement.
In my last full GC East, I had 1 Flak88 + 1 15cm, both with +1 movement (without transport)
Personally I like to convert the first artillery units which receive +1R heroes into StuG IIIB as they then become a useful offensive unit. I just played through the Stalingrad scenarios with StuG III/StuH 42s with range heroes and they were awesome in that environment. That said, I can certainly understand why you would like to convert into a Nebelwerfer or Wurfrahmen though. It's also a good choice.
goose_2
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Posts: 3207
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:22 am
Location: Winterset, Iowa
Contact:

Re: Range.

Post by goose_2 »

heinzrondorf wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:26 pm
MaxF wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:01 pm I just got my first +1R hero and have it on a towed 15cm.
I'm very tempted to have it on a Niebelwerfer 15cm! when it will become available.
Also tempted to have it on a StugIII, but that's ok also without range, until the soviets get too powerful tanks (best thing is to have 2 StugIII together so they help each others).

Range is also useful on a Flak88, which makes it a 5 hexes range including the 1 movement, practically a 11 hexes wide!
But you can get the same range with +1movement.
In my last full GC East, I had 1 Flak88 + 1 15cm, both with +1 movement (without transport)
Personally I like to convert the first artillery units which receive +1R heroes into StuG IIIB as they then become a useful offensive unit. I just played through the Stalingrad scenarios with StuG III/StuH 42s with range heroes and they were awesome in that environment. That said, I can certainly understand why you would like to convert into a Nebelwerfer or Wurfrahmen though. It's also a good choice.
The interesting thing about my Manstein playthrough is that I was able to get a ton of heroes for multiple units, over 100 by the start of 45. Because of this, I have experimented a lot with various units. Nebelwerfer's by a great deal are the most effective weapon at getting a 3rd hero. I have two with 3 heroes, and one poised to get a 3rd in Berlin. My StuG3B Range hero did not get awarded a 2nd hero until late 45 so the chance of getting effective heroes with your Range StuG's is almost nonexistent. Wurfrahmen's received their 2nd hero rather quickly and are poised to receive 3 heroes in Berlin. Probably.

So I think StuG3B are great, I use them in almost every scenario for their cheap effective defensive posture. But they do not acquire heroes quickly at all.
goose_2
Lutheran Multiplayer Tournament Organizer. :-)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRHQShaOv5PWoer6cP1syLQ
MaxF
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun May 21, 2017 10:47 pm

Re: Range.

Post by MaxF »

goose_2 wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:43 pm
The interesting thing about my Manstein playthrough is that I was able to get a ton of heroes for multiple units, over 100 by the start of 45. Because of this, I have experimented a lot with various units. Nebelwerfer's by a great deal are the most effective weapon at getting a 3rd hero. I have two with 3 heroes, and one poised to get a 3rd in Berlin. My StuG3B Range hero did not get awarded a 2nd hero until late 45 so the chance of getting effective heroes with your Range StuG's is almost nonexistent. Wurfrahmen's received their 2nd hero rather quickly and are poised to receive 3 heroes in Berlin. Probably.

So I think StuG3B are great, I use them in almost every scenario for their cheap effective defensive posture. But they do not acquire heroes quickly at all.
How do you get so many heroes, is it because of Manstein difficulty level?
dalfrede
Colonel - Fallschirmjäger
Colonel - Fallschirmjäger
Posts: 1461
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:48 pm

Re: Range.

Post by dalfrede »

MaxF wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:48 pm How do you get so many heroes, is it because of Manstein difficulty level?
Heroes come from kills, Manstein has AI with +5 strength units.
So yes, with 50% more strength points to kill, you get more kills, more kills more heroes.
There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.
MaxF
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun May 21, 2017 10:47 pm

Re: Range.

Post by MaxF »

dalfrede wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:51 pm
MaxF wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:48 pm How do you get so many heroes, is it because of Manstein difficulty level?
Heroes come from kills, Manstein has AI with +5 strength units.
So yes, with 50% more strength points to kill, you get more kills, more kills more heroes.
Thank you. I guessed some Manstein bonus. I'm already letting the AI to reform its units in battle to 'farm' them, sometimes.
I will increase the enemy strenght then. (That means, in my current game, from the end of 1940 GC.)
captainjack
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1908
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:42 am

Re: Range.

Post by captainjack »

Stug 3 with a range hero is very handy. A 3 range nebelwerfer is probably even better once the 21cm is available, although a 3 range 75 (or a 25 pounder) with loads of ammo and 110% RoF is good against soft targets and worth a try.

For me a range hero on AA is better on a 7/1 AA than on an 88 (or allied equivalent) as you have enough mobility to provide defensive cover for mobile groups (which the 88 isn't good for) and attack enemy air over a decent area.
heinzrondorf
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Posts: 116
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:02 pm

Re: Range.

Post by heinzrondorf »

goose_2 wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:43 pm The interesting thing about my Manstein playthrough is that I was able to get a ton of heroes for multiple units, over 100 by the start of 45. Because of this, I have experimented a lot with various units. Nebelwerfer's by a great deal are the most effective weapon at getting a 3rd hero. I have two with 3 heroes, and one poised to get a 3rd in Berlin. My StuG3B Range hero did not get awarded a 2nd hero until late 45 so the chance of getting effective heroes with your Range StuG's is almost nonexistent. Wurfrahmen's received their 2nd hero rather quickly and are poised to receive 3 heroes in Berlin. Probably.

So I think StuG3B are great, I use them in almost every scenario for their cheap effective defensive posture. But they do not acquire heroes quickly at all.
You are right when it comes to accumulating heroes :) ,Wurfrahmen and Nebelwerfer really gets a lot of kills.
However,I almost immediately upgrade the units after I receive the 1st hero so that the 1st hero negate that unit's weaknesses. This means for artillery:

Range hero -> StuG/StuH42/Brummbär
Move hero -> Nebelwerfer or Towed Artillery
Defensive hero -> Wurfrahmen/Panzerwerfer
Attack hero -> SPA such as Sturmpanzer/Sig38 etc

I have found that this gives me a very well balanced artillery core that suits my playing style and one where I can choose what types of artillery to bring into a certain type of scenario depending on the map and enemy. Granted I play on General at the moment so I have a lot of prestige to spare so I can understand this strategy might be more difficult to implement on Rommel or similar where prestige is tight.
goose_2
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Posts: 3207
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:22 am
Location: Winterset, Iowa
Contact:

Re: Range.

Post by goose_2 »

heinzrondorf wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:13 pm
goose_2 wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:43 pm The interesting thing about my Manstein playthrough is that I was able to get a ton of heroes for multiple units, over 100 by the start of 45. Because of this, I have experimented a lot with various units. Nebelwerfer's by a great deal are the most effective weapon at getting a 3rd hero. I have two with 3 heroes, and one poised to get a 3rd in Berlin. My StuG3B Range hero did not get awarded a 2nd hero until late 45 so the chance of getting effective heroes with your Range StuG's is almost nonexistent. Wurfrahmen's received their 2nd hero rather quickly and are poised to receive 3 heroes in Berlin. Probably.

So I think StuG3B are great, I use them in almost every scenario for their cheap effective defensive posture. But they do not acquire heroes quickly at all.
You are right when it comes to accumulating heroes :) ,Wurfrahmen and Nebelwerfer really gets a lot of kills.
However,I almost immediately upgrade the units after I receive the 1st hero so that the 1st hero negate that unit's weaknesses. This means for artillery:

Range hero -> StuG/StuH42/Brummbär
Move hero -> Nebelwerfer or Towed Artillery
Defensive hero -> Wurfrahmen/Panzerwerfer
Attack hero -> SPA such as Sturmpanzer/Sig38 etc

I have found that this gives me a very well balanced artillery core that suits my playing style and one where I can choose what types of artillery to bring into a certain type of scenario depending on the map and enemy. Granted I play on General at the moment so I have a lot of prestige to spare so I can understand this strategy might be more difficult to implement on Rommel or similar where prestige is tight.
Interesting, my playstyle is the exact opposite. I use heroes to dictate which unit they will be in, but instead of making it to counter their weaknesses I do it to enhance their strengths. Because I want to maximize their effectiveness.

Def heroes become StuG3B's.
Range heroes become anything towed, or Wurfrahmen.
Attack heroes become 17cm or Nebelwerfers.
Move are anything towed.

So some are similar.
goose_2
Lutheran Multiplayer Tournament Organizer. :-)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRHQShaOv5PWoer6cP1syLQ
braccada
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Posts: 387
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:58 pm
Location: Austria
Contact:

Re: Range.

Post by braccada »

The more I play the less use I see in range heroes. It sure feels nice, but it is super rare that it changes a tactical situation, because I hardly find myself out of targets for my artillery. Attack heroes on the other hand are useful every single shot. Def for Stugs is nice, too, because it keeps them alive.
Follow my Grand Let's Play series: Rommel, Manstein and Guderian
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=53035
George_Parr
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Posts: 185
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 3:57 pm

Re: Range.

Post by George_Parr »

Well, a range 4 artillery is really nice to take down enemy artillery that covers a defensive line. You can happily blast it away - or any AA nearby - without being in danger yourself. This is especially helpful when running into a defended river-line.

You might almost always have something to shoot at with your artillery anyway, but at the same time there are situations where such an artillery is the only thing that can savely deal with well-defended lines. Otherwise you either need to brute-force your way through bad odds, face counter-attacks on a terrain you don't want to face them on, or go into an artillery-duel in which the enemy can shoot back. All of which will often lead to heavy casualties. The only other option would be air support, which might not always fare all that well either if AA is nearby.
braccada
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Posts: 387
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:58 pm
Location: Austria
Contact:

Re: Range.

Post by braccada »

I agree, sometimes it is very nice to have it. The question is how often does it really change the outcome in terms of damage taken or critical speed? 1 out of a 100 turns? I do not have a good estimate, however I am pretty sure an attack hero will prevent more damage over the course of the game. Just to be clear, a range hero is still one of the best! Initially I thought it is the best. Now I would rank them like:

- movement
- attack
- range
- defense
- initiative / spotting
Follow my Grand Let's Play series: Rommel, Manstein and Guderian
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=53035
MaxF
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun May 21, 2017 10:47 pm

Re: Range.

Post by MaxF »

I still find the +1 range on a towed ( 15cm) the best option.
Since in many maps or situations you can't set all your artillery at a range 3 distance, so the one 1 hexe behind can open fire as well, maximizing firepower.
JagdpanzerIV
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:15 am

Re: Range.

Post by JagdpanzerIV »

The Brummbar is full of ammo, with +1 or +2 range it's very useful AND well armoured.
Post Reply

Return to “Panzer Corps”