The good, the bad, and the ugly

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verstaubtgesicht
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The good, the bad, and the ugly

Post by verstaubtgesicht » Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:00 pm

Just started the game and finished Moscow and wanted to share some impressions and ask some questions before going in too far. Overall, quite good, and I'd appreciate any answers. Seems that the forum is rather light on info: there were a lot more useful "stickies" in PzC 1 with strategies, combat mechanics (BTW, how do you get a detailed prediction before the combat? I think i was Ctrl L in PzC I or something).

GOOD
- New more elaborate mechanics, especially needing AT support for defending hard targets vs. arty (in PzC 1 it was too straightforward with just arty behind everything). Also reconn and aim hero boosters, 2x mass attack, encirclement, etc.
at least it looks like no spam (major frustration in PzC 1!), nd a more reasonable replacement rate for the AI, at least at General level (I still can't figure out what si this dependent on)
- Seems that the new system of core slots works better - more trade-offs and thinking (although it can get overwhelming at times)
- Supply (although this seems to be standard now in similar games like OOB). I wish though that fully suppressed surrounded units would gradually start dying off on their own or surrender without a fight after a while?
-AA much more useful as it defends within the whole range, not just next to a unit. Also less powerful, it seems, which is historically accurate. The only downside is that AI seems to ignore it, at least the weaker units (havent tried 88 yet).
-Love the diverse heroes and their mobility! Just maybe some of them a tad less balanced - I had a Pioniere in Moscow that ended up with +13 bonus On Roll hero! That guys killed T-34 in one shot cold...

BAD (or both good and bad)
- Maybe some lack of balance with units' ability vs cost. For example, reconn Storch is great (not only you can see everything, but it seems it also boosts combat as reconn), but only 1 slot and dirt cheap? Also KV-1 moves way too fast, etc...
- Also poor balance in upgrade trade offs - for example, going from Pz IIIJ to PzIIIJ/1 not only requires an extra slot for a slight increase in performance, but also wants an extra slot for level 11 overstrength, so basically TWO core slots! maybe that's because I'm playing with a trait that reduces core slots by 25% for tanks?
- Is split function useless? Honestly, I haven't used it, because it requires empty slots. I'd much rather have an extra unit throughout the scenario than keep open slots in reserve. Any idea where it really makes sense and how to use it?
I'm not sure about the new air mechanic, still getting used to it. What would be the major tactical difference in using it vs. PzC 1 mechanic?

UGLY
- The amount of information in the manual is dismal (or maybe I cannot find it?). No campaign tree, tables for movement in different weather, weather forecast seems to disappear and only shows current weather.
- Limited short keys and awkward managing of unit flow/map during a turn - where is centering key? When pressing Next for few units in a row, and then putting a unit to sleep it goes back to the beginning fo the cue. When pressing next, it does not center on the unit.
- Hard to see anything in a city when it snows (Moscow).
- Why couldn't there be a 2D option? I guess engine limitation that everybody seems to be using these days? It's kind of boring, all these games looking the same...

That's it for now. Thanks for pointers.

verstaubtgesicht
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Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly

Post by verstaubtgesicht » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:58 pm

BTW, the music sucks big time!

Tassadar
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Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly

Post by Tassadar » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:07 pm

verstaubtgesicht wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:58 pm
BTW, the music sucks big time!
Even if was the set of best compositions in the world after all that time it would get repetitive. After the initial campaign I just turned the sound off and went with whatever I felt like. Amon Amarth and Sabaton seem to work as decent BGM most of the time for me. :)

Rhaeg
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Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly

Post by Rhaeg » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:03 pm

Tassadar wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:07 pm
verstaubtgesicht wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:58 pm
BTW, the music sucks big time!
Even if was the set of best compositions in the world after all that time it would get repetitive. After the initial campaign I just turned the sound off and went with whatever I felt like. Amon Amarth and Sabaton seem to work as decent BGM most of the time for me. :)
Using the "eventually every track gets repetitive" argument like this is a way of saying it doesn't really matter what the soundtrack is like at all("It might as well be the ' nails on a chalkboard' sound, I will turn it off anyway and play my own music!"). I don't think the current soundtrack is bad btw, it's just very neutral to me: it does not stand out in any way, which could be seen as a plus since the tracks get put on repeat anyway. In an ideal world I would definitely like to see more music tracks in this game to add a bit more variety. Would it be possible to add the PC1 soundtrack to the mix?

Speaking about PC1 music, while I think all the PC tracks are ok (not good or bad), I thought this one was the exception: an awesome track when playing Afrikakorps scenarios: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJvTIk0 ... =DooMarine :)

And while we're on the subject of sounds, this seems like a good moment to bring up this old thread again on the quality of the current game sounds: viewtopic.php?f=464&t=97624 . We're almost half a year away from this quote after all:
Rudankort wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:51 pm
Thanks for feedback. I'm not 100% happy with all sounds either, and will try to improve things. Just need the post-release dust to settle down a bit. :)

Tassadar
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Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly

Post by Tassadar » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:43 pm

Rhaeg wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:03 pm
Using the "eventually every track gets repetitive" argument like this is a way of saying it doesn't really matter what the soundtrack is like at all("It might as well be the ' nails on a chalkboard' sound, I will turn it off anyway and play my own music!").
It's rather that I failed to see a strategic game where around the 100h mark I would not turn the sound off. While it can happen sooner or later the nature of a fixed soundtrack makes it more difficult to make interesting in the long run than in an RPG, action or adventure game. PzC 2 OST is serviceable, but nothing to write home about after the first campaign run. That's however the matter of priorities - the efforts and budget to increase the OST length and variety are better sent elsewhere.
Rhaeg wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:03 pm
And while we're on the subject of sounds, this seems like a good moment to bring up this old thread again on the quality of the current game sounds: viewtopic.php?f=464&t=97624 . We're almost half a year away from this quote after all:
Rudankort wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:51 pm
Thanks for feedback. I'm not 100% happy with all sounds either, and will try to improve things. Just need the post-release dust to settle down a bit. :)
This I agree 100% with. That's where the extra work can be located if there is any major update in store for the future so hopefully we will be surprised at one point by the tanks going into battle with new sounds.

nexusno2000
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Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly

Post by nexusno2000 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:10 pm

verstaubtgesicht wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:58 pm
BTW, the music sucks big time!
No, it does not.
Green Knight
https://www.youtube.com/c/GreenKnight2001

Kiane
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Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly

Post by Kiane » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:28 pm

The OST is actually one of the big improvements of PzC2 over PzC1. I listen to it while I exercise :D

I think we just have to admit that these things are down to taste.

verstaubtgesicht
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Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly

Post by verstaubtgesicht » Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:30 pm

OK, I made a mistake of mentioning the music. I don't like it because it does not reflect the fact that you ply a German. PzC 1 was more historically accurate - German campaigns ha German music, Soviet campaign Russian, etc.

I'd rather hear answers to my other questions, though.

KesaAnna
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Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly

Post by KesaAnna » Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:55 pm

verstaubtgesicht wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:00 pm

- The amount of information in the manual is dismal (or maybe I cannot find it?).
The manual does suck . But then , in my experience , that's typical , and not just in computer games.

In my opinion , instruction ~ how - to writing is the most demanding writing there is. You wrote a novel that sold a million copies ? Big deal.

You wrote a modding how - to that is actually intelligible to a neophyte , actually useful ? You should get a Nobel Prize.

But , whether it's scrubbing toilets , or writing usable instructions , mundane work is rarely valued as it should be = and you get what you pay for .


Anyway , I don't know if you have seen this thread , in the stickies section of the Panzer Corps 2 forum ;

viewtopic.php?f=464&t=100028

Unfortunately , most of the information in it is specific to the Axis Operations DLC . Not much general game information in it. But there is some useful general information in it . And , in any case , it's STILL light years - better than the game manual.

KesaAnna
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Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly

Post by KesaAnna » Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:23 pm

viewtopic.php?f=464&t=97489&p=837685#p837685

^ I found this guys Youtube videos very useful.

If you are not interested in winning tournaments against computer game whizzes , then the titles of his youtube video series might put you off.

That's misleading though . He actually goes into a lot of nuts and bolts - type stuff. Basic stuff , right click / left click stuff. In other words , practical stuff that's actually useful. :)

Schwarzvogel
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Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly

Post by Schwarzvogel » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:04 am

verstaubtgesicht wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:30 pm
OK, I made a mistake of mentioning the music. I don't like it because it does not reflect the fact that you ply a German. PzC 1 was more historically accurate - German campaigns ha German music, Soviet campaign Russian, etc.

I'd rather hear answers to my other questions, though.
It isn't a mistake to mention your opinion as you are perfectly entitled to it. To beat a dead (or dying) horse, each theatre or front has its own music. I particularly like the music tracks for the Eastern Front and North Africa. Most of the tracks for the Western Front leave a bit to be desired, though.

Regarding unit ability balance and splitting function, Recon aircraft are dirt cheap because they have no air attack whatsoever. Overextend your Fieseler Storch or Bf109 PR and it will get torn to pieces by enemy fighters. Suicide scouting with recon aircraft can eventually drain your prestige. Splitting units is most useful for encirclements, Trench Slog, and mass attack bonuses. If you like splitting units, choose the Flexible Command general trait. It pairs well with "Trench Slog" since artillery attacks will always reduce their maximum amount of entrenchment regardless of the battery's unit strength. Splitting is also a great way to get more use out of your recon planes--covering more land, providing more aiming assistance, and keeping suicide scouts alive longer :D.

Finally, apropos of your Panzer IIIJ :arrow: Panzer IIIJ/1 example (and tanks in general), I wouldn't call +2 hard attack a "slight" increase in performance. Going from 16 to 18 hard attack and gaining 1 initiative can make the difference in whether you can actually damage T-34s (and capture encircled ones) or just scratch the paint. Nevertheless, you will still need AT guns to back up those weaker panzers. I feel that the Panzer IIIJ/1 slot cost makes it a rather cost-effective option to fill in that last gap when you just don't have enough space for another Panzer IVF2, or are playing with the Retrograde general trait and won't get access to the Panzer IV Ausf. F2 as soon as you might like.

ADMIRAL3
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Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly

Post by ADMIRAL3 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:58 am

The game is grown up and much appreciated. I hope now it's time to set up a major revision of game sounds and give another boost to this great simulation. Battle sounds remain really disappointing so far. Please move on!! LBM

verstaubtgesicht
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Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly

Post by verstaubtgesicht » Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:17 am

Schwarzvogel wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:04 am
Finally, apropos of your Panzer IIIJ :arrow: Panzer IIIJ/1 example (and tanks in general), I wouldn't call +2 hard attack a "slight" increase in performance. Going from 16 to 18 hard attack and gaining 1 initiative can make the difference in whether you can actually damage T-34s (and capture encircled ones) or just scratch the paint. Nevertheless, you will still need AT guns to back up those weaker panzers. I feel that the Panzer IIIJ/1 slot cost makes it a rather cost-effective option to fill in that last gap when you just don't have enough space for another Panzer IVF2, or are playing with the Retrograde general trait and won't get access to the Panzer IV Ausf. F2 as soon as you might like.
I am not saying that IIIJ/1 is not a significant upgrade, but this is paid for with 3 vs. 2 slots. However, there is an additional penalty that IIIJ could be overstrengthened to 11 with 2 slots, whereas IIIJ/1 allows only strength 10 with 3 slots, but 4 slots for strength 11. Hence, it's a double whammy, I I don't know what I am buying - how much is strength 10 IIIJ/1 really better than strength 11 IIIJ - two variables at a time becomes apples to oranges comparison.

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Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly

Post by Vorskl » Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:09 pm

Tassadar wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:07 pm
verstaubtgesicht wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:58 pm
BTW, the music sucks big time!
Even if was the set of best compositions in the world after all that time it would get repetitive. After the initial campaign I just turned the sound off and went with whatever I felt like. Amon Amarth and Sabaton seem to work as decent BGM most of the time for me. :)
Amon sounds almost the same as Ensiferum :)
For the future Soviet campaign, I already found a proper track https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsQ36n42zZI

Tassadar
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Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly

Post by Tassadar » Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:11 pm

Vorskl wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:09 pm
Tassadar wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:07 pm
verstaubtgesicht wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:58 pm
BTW, the music sucks big time!
Even if was the set of best compositions in the world after all that time it would get repetitive. After the initial campaign I just turned the sound off and went with whatever I felt like. Amon Amarth and Sabaton seem to work as decent BGM most of the time for me. :)
Amon sounds almost the same as Ensiferum :)
For the future Soviet campaign, I already found a proper track https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsQ36n42zZI
In PzC 1 Soviet Corps I actually used songs by the Alexandrov Ensemble. Fits perfectly.

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Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly

Post by adiekmann » Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:02 pm

verstaubtgesicht wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:00 pm
Just started the game and finished Moscow and wanted to share some impressions and ask some questions before going in too far. Overall, quite good, and I'd appreciate any answers. Seems that the forum is rather light on info: there were a lot more useful "stickies" in PzC 1 with strategies, combat mechanics (BTW, how do you get a detailed prediction before the combat? I think i was Ctrl L in PzC I or something).

GOOD
- New more elaborate mechanics, especially needing AT support for defending hard targets vs. arty (in PzC 1 it was too straightforward with just arty behind everything). Also reconn and aim hero boosters, 2x mass attack, encirclement, etc.
at least it looks like no spam (major frustration in PzC 1!), nd a more reasonable replacement rate for the AI, at least at General level (I still can't figure out what si this dependent on)
- Seems that the new system of core slots works better - more trade-offs and thinking (although it can get overwhelming at times)
- Supply (although this seems to be standard now in similar games like OOB). I wish though that fully suppressed surrounded units would gradually start dying off on their own or surrender without a fight after a while?
-AA much more useful as it defends within the whole range, not just next to a unit. Also less powerful, it seems, which is historically accurate. The only downside is that AI seems to ignore it, at least the weaker units (havent tried 88 yet).
-Love the diverse heroes and their mobility! Just maybe some of them a tad less balanced - I had a Pioniere in Moscow that ended up with +13 bonus On Roll hero! That guys killed T-34 in one shot cold...

BAD (or both good and bad)
- Maybe some lack of balance with units' ability vs cost. For example, reconn Storch is great (not only you can see everything, but it seems it also boosts combat as reconn), but only 1 slot and dirt cheap? Also KV-1 moves way too fast, etc... A lot of us have issues with various unit specs
- Also poor balance in upgrade trade offs - for example, going from Pz IIIJ to PzIIIJ/1 not only requires an extra slot for a slight increase in performance, but also wants an extra slot for level 11 overstrength, so basically TWO core slots! maybe that's because I'm playing with a trait that reduces core slots by 25% for tanks?
- Is split function useless? Honestly, I haven't used it, because it requires empty slots. I'd much rather have an extra unit throughout the scenario than keep open slots in reserve. Any idea where it really makes sense and how to use it?I generally like maximizing the number of units that I can deploy too, meaning no room for splits. However, like some of these other aspects of the game that's what one of the General Traits is for. But beyond that, it depends more on how you like to play. Some players aim to capture as much enemy stuff as possible to generate a big pool of captured material and prestige. That is not how I play, so it isn't a big deal to me. The only time I miss it is in SCW where your German equipment sucks and you REALLy need to capture enough Republican material to outfit and maintain your Condor Legion army. However, even then I did not use Splits but instead Trophies of War. Surrounding the enemy is only worth it to me when I am dealing with a particularly tough and deeply entrenched enemy position. Otherwise, I am more of the Incredible Hulk school of thought when playing: Smash and go.
I'm not sure about the new air mechanic, still getting used to it. What would be the major tactical difference in using it vs. PzC 1 mechanic? Does take some getting used to, but I overall like it better. Makes more realistic sense too. Tired of forgetting about an air unit and then seeing it missing later because it ran out of fuel!

UGLY
- The amount of information in the manual is dismal (or maybe I cannot find it?). No campaign tree, tables for movement in different weather, weather forecast seems to disappear and only shows current weather. Campaign tree was included in the FM version in the game files. Not original UI. However, somebody has posted the DLC trees for each campaign anyway and that's good enough for me. After a couple of play throughs I kind of remember it by then anyway.
- Limited short keys and awkward managing of unit flow/map during a turn - where is centering key? When pressing Next for few units in a row, and then putting a unit to sleep it goes back to the beginning fo the cue. When pressing next, it does not center on the unit. Not really an issue for me. I use the F2 unit list, or the F7 strategic map to move to entirely different sectors of the battlefield if I need to. Usually I have used most of my units, so N is good enough for me to catch the few that I may have missed. Now, in later DLCs when our core gets much bigger, this may be an issue then, but as of now it hasn't been for me.
- Hard to see anything in a city when it snows (Moscow). Don't recall having this problem. Maybe because I have everything set to max?
- Why couldn't there be a 2D option? I guess engine limitation that everybody seems to be using these days? It's kind of boring, all these games looking the same...Good question that's been asked many time by many posters since its release. Don't know. I have a pretty high end system but even then it's taken a while for me to get used to the 3D graphics, especially when selecting a unit where one of your aircraft and ground units share the hex. Liked the way it worked in PC1 much better.

That's it for now. Thanks for pointers.

Schwarzvogel
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Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly

Post by Schwarzvogel » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:16 pm

verstaubtgesicht wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:17 am
Schwarzvogel wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:04 am
Finally, apropos of your Panzer IIIJ :arrow: Panzer IIIJ/1 example (and tanks in general), I wouldn't call +2 hard attack a "slight" increase in performance. Going from 16 to 18 hard attack and gaining 1 initiative can make the difference in whether you can actually damage T-34s (and capture encircled ones) or just scratch the paint. Nevertheless, you will still need AT guns to back up those weaker panzers. I feel that the Panzer IIIJ/1 slot cost makes it a rather cost-effective option to fill in that last gap when you just don't have enough space for another Panzer IVF2, or are playing with the Retrograde general trait and won't get access to the Panzer IV Ausf. F2 as soon as you might like.
I am not saying that IIIJ/1 is not a significant upgrade, but this is paid for with 3 vs. 2 slots. However, there is an additional penalty that IIIJ could be overstrengthened to 11 with 2 slots, whereas IIIJ/1 allows only strength 10 with 3 slots, but 4 slots for strength 11. Hence, it's a double whammy, I I don't know what I am buying - how much is strength 10 IIIJ/1 really better than strength 11 IIIJ - two variables at a time becomes apples to oranges comparison.
That is a good point. Whether the 10 strength IIIJ/1 is better than the 11 strength IIIJ will also depend on your general traits and the scenario. If you are getting the Panzer IV F2 in the next mission (e.g. Kharkov '42 after Moscow), then you're better off just sticking with the IIIJs. Using Moscow as an example, it is mostly an urban battle your Pioniere have little trouble tearing up tanks foolish enough to enter the city and even the IIIJ/1s will struggle against the T-34 and KV-2 bumrush you face after getting halfway through the city.

Personally, I'd say you are better off with a greater number of decent tanks than a few, overstrength tanks since if you focus too much on quality (having a few, highly powerful units instead of a core of reasonably effective ones), you might find you don't have enough forces to properly protect your artillery, AT, and AA from sneaky cavalry and recons or to reach isolated objectives on bigger maps which may require you to divide your forces into separate battle groups. Additionally, this game really rewards encircling the enemy and forcing surrenders over outright killing them, and you can't pull off encirclements and protect your supporting units (viz. arty, AT, and AA) if you don't have enough tanks. I've noticed by the late war, enemy tanks are powerful enough to trade shots with soft-type AT (e.g. Flak 36s in AT mode) on the front lines and they can and will happily attack AT guns in the open.

One other variable that also plays a huge role in unit performance is veterancy. If you've reached Sealion on the ahistorical branch, look at the veterancy of the Royal Navy versus your own Kriegsmarine auxiliaries to see why the British ships are so fearsome. It really makes you wonder what the Kriegsmarine was doing up to that point... :shock:

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Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly

Post by panzeh » Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:25 pm

While the new slots create some awkward upgrade points, I think it's a fair bit better than the fixed upgrade slots that say "always maximum upgrade every unit you take"

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Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly

Post by Edmon » Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:21 pm

KesaAnna wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:23 pm
viewtopic.php?f=464&t=97489&p=837685#p837685

^ I found this guys Youtube videos very useful.

If you are not interested in winning tournaments against computer game whizzes , then the titles of his youtube video series might put you off.

That's misleading though . He actually goes into a lot of nuts and bolts - type stuff. Basic stuff , right click / left click stuff. In other words , practical stuff that's actually useful. :)
Thanks for the shout out! :).

I have added a lot to that series since that original post. If you grab the playlist from my main youtube page, there are some guides there that cover the super-basics as well. It is simply labelled "Panzer Corps 2 Guides".

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