DLC 1940 Prediction Forum Game

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kondi754
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Re: DLC 1940 Prediction Forum Game

Post by kondi754 » Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:23 am

Vorskl wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:49 am
kondi754 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:51 am
Re: Kursk

I have to confirm that the Russians knew German plan very well, possibly also from their western allies (I'm sure of it, in fact) but they received a lot of information from their spies too.
The Soviets even launched an artillery counter-attack on German units near Kursk just before the start of the German attack, as well as Soviet planes attacked German airfields in early July 1943 with large forces involvement.
Information from Bletchley Park was passed not only to the closest allies but also to the USSR, China and even the communist Tito partisans in Yugoslavia
It is obvious that the British only disclosed to these countries as much as they needed to know, and only as much as not to reveal the source
The value of this intelligence is grossly overestimated: while Soviet prepared to meet Germans at north, the main German strike occured at south. Moreover, even at north Rokossovskiy thought Model will strike along the railroad, so he missed the strike direction as well. As for the arty 'pre-strike', its impact is grossly overestimated. If you can, try to find books of Alexei Isaev (I saw there are some printed in English - https://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Zitadelle ... 1912390086 ) He's a modern Russian historian, works for the Russian Ministry of Defense (so be careful with some of his conclusions) but in his books he publishes a lot of first-hand materials from Soviet archives which were not revealed previously.
Thanks for link again :)
Of course, this "pre-strike" I mentioned didn't cause great damage, as did the attacks on airfields too, but it clearly shows that Stavka knew the plans of the Germans - I'm not even thinking about the general location of the attack, because it was easy to predict :mrgreen: (although, as you wrote, in the north the Soviets chose a different center of gravity in the concentration of troops in defense) but for the precise timing of the attack by the Germans

EDIT. I coudn't agree that the Soviets didn't know about the Manstein/Hoth attack in the south, as the Luftwaffe airfield complex near Kharkov was bombed. Also in the south, more lines of defense were built inward and large armored forces were concentrated both just behind the lines of defense (1st Katukov's Tank Army) and as a strategic reserve (5th Rotmistrov's Tank Army).
Of course, the 5th Tank Army was intended to be used during the Soviet offensive after repelling the German attack, but the course of the battle forced Stavka to use it already at the defense stage - which is a great success for the Germans IMO. I also don't know what was the actual quality and degree of preparation of the Soviet defense lines near Kursk, from what I was able to read, they were actually only small sections turned into fortresses with overlapping fields of fire, and most of them remained at the stage of ordinary field fortifications only with a certain greater saturation of anti-tank resources.

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Re: DLC 1940 Prediction Forum Game

Post by Vorskl » Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:28 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:23 am
and most of them remained at the stage of ordinary field fortifications only with a certain greater saturation of anti-tank resources.
Here is Isaev's lecture on the Dubno battle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_wZvEDuXsw check if you can understand it with English subtitles

kondi754
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Re: DLC 1940 Prediction Forum Game

Post by kondi754 » Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:43 pm

Vorskl wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:28 pm
kondi754 wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:23 am
and most of them remained at the stage of ordinary field fortifications only with a certain greater saturation of anti-tank resources.
Here is Isaev's lecture on the Dubno battle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_wZvEDuXsw check if you can understand it with English subtitles
Unfortunately, the English translation is terrible :(
In general, I understand what's going on, but it is very non-grammatical, hard to read

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Re: DLC 1940 Prediction Forum Game

Post by Kerensky » Sat Oct 03, 2020 7:41 am

Patrick Ward wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:51 am
A bit late to the table but

5D - being the Battle of Britain. I'd want the switch ( if you chose to make it ) from airfield bombing to city bombing to be a hugely significant decision point. It'd be interesting to see if you could lessen the effect of hindsight and make the switch seem like the optimal move. I'd rather that than the decision being forced on me.

5C - Finnish 1940. Presumably that would be the full Winter War?

5E - Balkans - we've missed them so far so it'd be good to explore.

P
Not too late at all. Bets/votes are more than welcome to continue to trickle in until the next big Panzer Corps 2 related announcement comes out.

Interesting picks. That is a highly complex Battle of Britain. I wonder if that's possible to even do within the Panzer Corps 2 game systems. The map would have to be really small for aircraft to reach their targets, but also kinda big to allow for abundance of targets and to make sure key targets aren't just always covered by aircraft at all times.

Maybe a map with a weirdly small English channel?

And yea, no Balkans in the main game, but then normal Balkans most people think of isn't until 1941 and Operation Marita either.

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Re: DLC 1940 Prediction Forum Game

Post by Retributarr » Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:16 am

Patrick Ward wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:51 am
A bit late to the table but

5D - being the Battle of Britain. I'd want the switch ( if you chose to make it ) from airfield bombing to city bombing to be a hugely significant decision point. It'd be interesting to see if you could lessen the effect of hindsight and make the switch seem like the optimal move. I'd rather that than the decision being forced on me.

5C - Finnish 1940. Presumably that would be the full Winter War?

5E - Balkans - we've missed them so far so it'd be good to explore.

P
Historically... yes!... perhaps most of the 'Luftwaffe-Bombing' missions did take place on the Populated Cities... I don't know that for a fact, but I tend to believe it.

Anyway!... bombing cities is not the most effective way to determine a decisive victory. Instead... on the other-hand... if the 'Radar-Stations' and 'Airfields' were bombed to oblivion... pounded into dust!... that would for sure have sealed the fate of 'Britain'... this would very likely have forced them to surrender.
------------------Additional Commentary-------------------------------
5E - Balkans - we've missed them so far so it'd be good to explore.
If this Game were based on any-kind of semblance of 'Reality'... then!... "Yugoslavia" would have certainly have been of 'Paramount-Importance'... and not side-lined or bypassed!. Why???... because the Germans needed the 'Bauxite/Aluminum'... which was desperately required in order to construct more aircraft!. The 'Bauxite' supplies from Norway... were just barely sufficient to maintain the force requirements for the 'Air-Fleet' that participated in "The Battle of Britain".

I thought that this information was absolutely necessary to bring to the fore-front!.
Last edited by Retributarr on Sat Oct 03, 2020 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

brettwjohnson
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Re: DLC 1940 Prediction Forum Game

Post by brettwjohnson » Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:02 pm

IMHO - While a lot of stuff said on the forum is correct (i.e., Both the Germans and Allies should have not bombed cities, but concentrated on other targets) - it's really out of scope for this level of game. Those are strategic level decisions, not tactical.

At best, those kinds of decision could be dealt with by offering the player the choice (possibly w/ prestige or other game effects costs...)

Example:
a) support battle of Britain (player A/C cost +1 slot (after overstrength) for remainder of game. All British A/C have a max strength of -2 for remainder of game)
b) do not support battle of Britain (no effects)

Some of the most interesting 1940 decisions would likely lead to needing to massively scale up the # of supported scenarios to address the very different campaign paths: 1940 Sealion, 1940 Barbarossa (instead of or simultaneous w/ France), early Desert War, etc. To do it right, you would probably need *multiple* 1940 AO DLC (one for roughly historical path, one each for the other paths...)

kondi754
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Re: DLC 1940 Prediction Forum Game

Post by kondi754 » Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:14 pm

Vorskl wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:28 pm
kondi754 wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:23 am
and most of them remained at the stage of ordinary field fortifications only with a certain greater saturation of anti-tank resources.
Here is Isaev's lecture on the Dubno battle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_wZvEDuXsw check if you can understand it with English subtitles
Recently, I was reading a large article about the Dubno-Lutsk-Brody battle, so I'm up to date
Unfortunately, I don't take this fight seriously on the list of the greatest tank battles in history, as most of the photos of this battle show Soviet tanks abandoned at the edge of the road :)

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Re: DLC 1940 Prediction Forum Game

Post by sakura006 » Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:41 am

2D - Scrapulous - German in China
4E - Linai - New nemesis

English is not my native language, I scratch my head trying to figure out what Scrapulous is. Is that English? As a Chinese, I know that Germany helped modernize Chinese army before the world war 2. Some of battalions of KMT were equipped with German guns, artilleries and even anti-tank guns. But I never knew that there were Germans actually fighting in China. I will be very excited to see how this part goes on.

I love the nemesis system, I hope it becomes better and more fun to play with. My hype is real. :)
Last edited by sakura006 on Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Scrapulous
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Re: DLC 1940 Prediction Forum Game

Post by Scrapulous » Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:39 pm

sakura006 wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:41 am
2D - Scrapulous - German in China
4E - Linai New nemesis

English is not my native language, I scratch my head trying to figure out what Scrapulous is. Is that English? As a Chinese, I know that Germany helped modernize Chinese army before the world war 2. Some of battalions of KMT were equipped with German guns, artilleries and even anti-tank guns. But I never knew that there were Germans actually fighting in China. I will be very excited to see how this part goes on.

I love the nemesis system, I hope it becomes better and more fun to play with. Linai does not sounds like an English or French or German name. It does sound like a Chinese name to me. My hype is real. :)
I don't think there were actually Germans fighting in China - I only suggested it to make a little fun of this forum over the heated discussions about some of the non-historical missions that have been in the DLCs. I wanted to suggest something that wasn't only non-historical, but also very unlikely, which is an entire German army and its equipment somehow getting all the way to China to fight :). I did know about von Falkenhausen's mission to China and the modernization of the Kuomintang, but I think von Falkenhausen himself had been recalled to Europe by 1940 after pressure from the Japanese. I'm definitely not an expert, though, and I'm often wrong.

Scrapulous - it's a nonsense name. I made it up to evoke both "fabulous" and "scrappy," to make fun of myself; I'm not really either of those things. It also has the word "crap" in it and is one letter away from "scrupulous," so I appreciated the different possible facets of interpretation. I can see how none of it would come across to a non-native english speaker, and also how maybe even to other native speakers it's meaningless, but a private joke is as good to me as a shared joke, so it's the name I use.

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Re: DLC 1940 Prediction Forum Game

Post by Buffalohump » Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:09 pm

[quote=Scrapulous post_id=882222 time=1601915998

I don't think there were actually Germans fighting in China - I only suggested it to make a little fun of this forum over the heated discussions about some of the non-historical missions that have been in the DLCs. I wanted to suggest something that wasn't only non-historical, but also very unlikely, which is an entire German army and its equipment somehow getting all the way to China to fight :).
[/quote]

I must admit I hoped you were joking.

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Re: DLC 1940 Prediction Forum Game

Post by Kerensky » Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:20 pm

sakura006 wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:41 am
2D - Scrapulous - German in China
4E - Linai - New nemesis

English is not my native language, I scratch my head trying to figure out what Scrapulous is. Is that English? As a Chinese, I know that Germany helped modernize Chinese army before the world war 2. Some of battalions of KMT were equipped with German guns, artilleries and even anti-tank guns. But I never knew that there were Germans actually fighting in China. I will be very excited to see how this part goes on.

I love the nemesis system, I hope it becomes better and more fun to play with. My hype is real. :)
Some bets on the outliers eh? Interesting, but then again Italy in 1940 Balkans rocketed up the same way, so you never know...

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Re: DLC 1940 Prediction Forum Game

Post by Kerensky » Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:23 pm

brettwjohnson wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:02 pm

Some of the most interesting 1940 decisions would likely lead to needing to massively scale up the # of supported scenarios to address the very different campaign paths: 1940 Sealion, 1940 Barbarossa (instead of or simultaneous w/ France), early Desert War, etc. To do it right, you would probably need *multiple* 1940 AO DLC (one for roughly historical path, one each for the other paths...)
Historically speaking, it's too soon to explore full separate branches. Fictionally speaking, I think the core audience is here for the historical content, and going wildly fictional this early into the Axis Operations will probably annoy some people who want to see the historical stuff done to it's fullest.

The past is written, but it's fun and a cool creative exercise to play with re-writing it. What the future actually holds for PzC2 though? Well that's still anyone's guess. :mrgreen:

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Re: DLC 1940 Prediction Forum Game

Post by Retributarr » Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:07 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:23 pm
brettwjohnson wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:02 pm

Some of the most interesting 1940 decisions would likely lead to very different campaign paths: 1940 Sealion, 1940 Barbarossa (instead of or simultaneous w/ France), early Desert War, etc.
Historically speaking, it's too soon to explore full separate branches. Fictionally speaking, I think the core audience is here for the historical content.
The past is written, but it's fun and a cool creative exercise to play with re-writing it. What the future actually holds for PzC2 though? Well that's still anyone's guess. :mrgreen:
What-ever lies beyond the heavy impenetrable blanket of "Fog"... of the 'Known Un-Knowns'... of the 'Future' for 'PzC2'... wild speculation... is still my declaration... so I venture forth... a 'Title or Two'... to put into this 'Witches-Brew'.

For... The "Speculative-Alternative-WWII Pathways:".
*** "PzC2_ Risk Determination". [Roll the Dice!... take your chances]
*** "PzC2_ Winds of War". [Wind direction is always unexpectedly ever-changing, ...its never certain]
*** "PzC2_ Desperate Gambit". [Victory or Death!... Perfect timing and planning is critical]
*** "PzC2_ Un-Known Destiny". [Anything can happen!... a 'Nasty-Surprise'...could be your demise???]

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Re: DLC 1940 Prediction Forum Game

Post by adiekmann » Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:34 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:23 pm
brettwjohnson wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:02 pm

Some of the most interesting 1940 decisions would likely lead to needing to massively scale up the # of supported scenarios to address the very different campaign paths: 1940 Sealion, 1940 Barbarossa (instead of or simultaneous w/ France), early Desert War, etc. To do it right, you would probably need *multiple* 1940 AO DLC (one for roughly historical path, one each for the other paths...)
Historically speaking, it's too soon to explore full separate branches. Fictionally speaking, I think the core audience is here for the historical content, and going wildly fictional this early into the Axis Operations will probably annoy some people who want to see the historical stuff done to it's fullest.

The past is written, but it's fun and a cool creative exercise to play with re-writing it. What the future actually holds for PzC2 though? Well that's still anyone's guess. :mrgreen:
While I do enjoy a good "what if," my main interest for now is historical. I voted for historical scenarios/battles that haven't been covered before. Hopefully, all goes well and all of the "historical" stuff is done, then perhaps fictional DLCs/scenarios can be explored. But even then, I think there is much rich content potential for backwater theaters of the war can can and should be explored/done before we go crazy with any weird stuff like Nazis invading Antarctica, Mars, Freicorps after WW1, or whatever.

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Re: DLC 1940 Prediction Forum Game

Post by PanzerG » Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:23 pm

1D, 3E, 5D for me pls.

Island: Germans actually had secret weather teams in the area. I remember reading a book by a guy serving in one....pretty hardcore stuff like doing an appendix surgery with a pocket knife...they were so remote that it took till 1946 to pick them up by a norvegian fishing boat.

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Re: DLC 1940 Prediction Forum Game

Post by Kerensky » Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:38 pm

PanzerG wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:23 pm
1D, 3E, 5D for me pls.

Island: Germans actually had secret weather teams in the area. I remember reading a book by a guy serving in one....pretty hardcore stuff like doing an appendix surgery with a pocket knife...they were so remote that it took till 1946 to pick them up by a norvegian fishing boat.
Counted. Interesting aircraft orientated picks. I guess someone doesn't like the Denied Air Force general trait. ;)

The count is getting dangerously close to a three way tie. But there still is an undetermined time until an announcement comes so... not worried yet. :wink:

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Re: DLC 1940 Prediction Forum Game

Post by SirAllan » Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:12 pm

3A - I just love airborne operations
5A - Interesting dilemmas and early armor grand battle
1B - we might could get Rommel as special Hero (Rommel have a special star in evryone)

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Re: DLC 1940 Prediction Forum Game

Post by Kerensky » Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:19 pm

SirAllan wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:12 pm
3A - I just love airborne operations
5A - Interesting dilemmas and early armor grand battle
1B - we might could get Rommel as special Hero (Rommel have a special star in evryone)
Counted, thanks!

Yea 1940 and 1941 are the biggest years for German airborne operations, it's about time to really see them in a campaign environment. After Crete, not so much, but then there are the Allied airborne operations later on.

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Re: DLC 1940 Prediction Forum Game

Post by PanzerG » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:08 am

SirAllan wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:12 pm
1B - we might could get Rommel as special Hero (Rommel have a special star in evryone)
including Gebirgsjäger bonus, as most ppl forget that Rommel's first major military achievements happened in ww1 as battalion commander in the Royal Wurttemberg Mountain Battalion. (Blitzkrieg w/o tanks)
Maybe an idea for a future dlc ? retrospective scenarios from the career of ww2 heroes ?

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Re: DLC 1940 Prediction Forum Game

Post by Kerensky » Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:17 pm

Ladies and Gentlemen, the game is over.

https://www.slitherine.com/game/panzer- ... tions-1940
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1438 ... ons__1940/

No more votes or bets will be counted.

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