AT guns unit attack strength?

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Protonic2020
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AT guns unit attack strength?

Post by Protonic2020 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:45 pm

I just noticed in the free game version only of OOB that one AT(antitank) unit had such a success against infantry? The infantry in a wooded area, and with some disadvantage with the supply (or is it morale now), so it was yellow or orange, can´t straight up remember all the details about this particular situation now. But it was enough for me to react on the fact that it from one open ground hex still could have such success that it had against that unit with the circumstances, earlier Russian AT gun against later dated German infantry and when being more of a AT defensive weapon for a fact. AT guns were, as far as i know, not much different to the artillery apart from that it used direct fire instead of the artillery´s indirect usage. So it surprises me that at least these units in the game can go on attack considering the reality, and all.

Oh and the strength values of both of the units, mind you now just taken from memory, but 10 for the AT unit initially and around 7 to 5 for the other one. First strike resulting in around a 2 hit point loss for the infantry, and a one loss at the second attack, 0 HP lost in first strike for the AT unit and 1 on second attempt but approximately now only. And with the difficulty being in the middle (called Captain?).
OK i realize the hard fact numbers and circumstances could be less vague from me now but i DARE to hit the "submit" button here still, aaaaaaand i´m done.

StuccoFresco
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Re: AT guns unit attack strength?

Post by StuccoFresco » Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:11 am

Yellow or orange proficiency is quite bad, expecially orange.

I don't understand who was attacing who.

conboy
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Re: AT guns unit attack strength?

Post by conboy » Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:48 pm

Anti-tank units can attack infantry units. If AT is full strength, and the infantry unit is stressed or weakened, such damage as you describe can be inflicted upon the infantry unit.

conboy

Protonic2020
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Re: AT guns unit attack strength?

Post by Protonic2020 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:17 pm

Anyone else? I was thinking up a comment to give now but i erased it....
StuccoFresco wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:11 am
Yellow or orange proficiency is quite bad, expecially orange.

I don't understand who was attacing who.
My bad

Admiral_Horthy
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Re: AT guns unit attack strength?

Post by Admiral_Horthy » Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:02 am

Reality is wildly depends on type of gun. In reality not the class determines the effectiveness, but the effectiveness determines the class. Guns have certain values that affect it's performance in various roles. This is kind of science, internal, external terminal ballistics, and to some extent pressure physics.

In short,
There is muzzle velocity - determines projectile speed, that has effect on range, trajectory and impact velocity. Usually high muzzle velocity is achieved in long barrels (high calibre lenght) with large amount of propellant.
Shooting angle - determined by the gun model, in what angle the barrel can be raised and fired (and reloaded). High angle results in high angle impact, and less burrowing of the shell, low angle causes flat impact sometimes ground ricochet.
Shell type - what amount of explosives, what kind of fuse, shape of projectile etc. determines the explosion size (if any), area effect, penetration of armor/obstacles. Burrowing limits the explosion, distorts the explosion and fragment pattern.

For AT role, high speed, range at flat trajectory and high penetration is required. - Usually high caliber at high calibre length, penetrating projectile.
For artillery, flat trajectory and high speed is bad. For infantry support a mortar is the best, high angle, low velocity and high amount of explosives.

In reality the guns were made in though of multi purpose, that had many implementations.
In WWI field guns were the middle route between these two extremes, which resulted in mediocre performance. Out of these direct firing field guns evolved the first AT guns, besides the other line evolved from large rifles.

A particular case, the ZiS-2 57mm AT gun, that is poorly modeled in the vanilla game. It was developed as early as 1941, with a penetration rivaling the german 88. But it was put on hold, since the weak armored german tanks could be very well killed by the 45mm AT and 76mm field guns of many kind. In early 42, came the ZiS-3, the most numerous artillery piece in the WW2, and in the world probably. 76.2mm calibre multi purpose field gun, with both AP and HE shells. It's penetration was mediocre, but it was also used in direct support and as artillery as well. The 57mm shell of the ZiS-2, well over 1200m/s it was almost useless firing HE shells.
In contrary the low velocity 75mm and 76mm infantry guns, gun-mortars (inf gun with very high firing angle), mountain howitzers can only defeat armor when firing HEAT or splash head shells that require no impact velocity.
Also note that some nations used canister shots, and shrapnel for their field guns, which work like a huge shotgun. Direct firing these into infantry is devastating.

Edit. One more thing to add, the type of AP shells in early soviet guns (76mm and above) were in fact APHE. Armor piercing High Explosive shells meant to penetrate armor and explode inside. This sound good, however it is an all-or-nothing solution. The shells are filled with explosive and fuse, are less capable of penetrating and are fragile compared to solid penetrators. IF they penetrate they cause massive damage, but if not they break and explode on the surface with almost no effect. These shells were used mainly on warships and with huge caliber guns.

Horst
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Re: AT guns unit attack strength?

Post by Horst » Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:38 pm

The AT-mode inf-attack value of the 76mm_ZiS3_AT (8-6) and 100mm_BS3 (10-6) is clearly an inconsistent bug. Someone may report this.

Admiral_Horthy
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Re: AT guns unit attack strength?

Post by Admiral_Horthy » Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:16 pm

Horst wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:38 pm
The AT-mode inf-attack value of the 76mm_ZiS3_AT (8-6) and 100mm_BS3 (10-6) is clearly an inconsistent bug. Someone may report this.
Yes it is... it should be 4, and 3, as in my mod. The AT variant has the ART values copy pasted.

I'd report it, but I uninstalled everything, I can't get rid of the bug of missing / low res effects

GabeKnight
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Re: AT guns unit attack strength?

Post by GabeKnight » Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:12 pm

Admiral_Horthy wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:16 pm
Horst wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:38 pm
The AT-mode inf-attack value of the 76mm_ZiS3_AT (8-6) and 100mm_BS3 (10-6) is clearly an inconsistent bug. Someone may report this.
Yes it is... it should be 4, and 3, as in my mod. The AT variant has the ART values copy pasted.

I'd report it, but I uninstalled everything, I can't get rid of the bug of missing / low res effects
Thank you both for the info. Noted for my mod.

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