The First Nemesis: Comandante Vega

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Kerensky
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Re: The First Nemesis: Comandante Vega

Post by Kerensky » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:17 pm

Retributarr wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:40 pm
Heyaa!!!... What about a "what-For"... for our side???:

Why-not consider including... a... "General Patton"... "Bernard Montgomery"... "Rommel"... "Zhukov"... just to name a few!.

If the 'AI' is going to have a rafter of "Heroes"... we should have some too!... shouldn't we???.
There's a bit of a different between seeing an ace like Adolf Galland on the field during the Spanish Civil War than it would be to see the likes of Zhukov or Rommel on the battlefield... :P

WalterTFD
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Re: The First Nemesis: Comandante Vega

Post by WalterTFD » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:52 pm

I think Retributarr is suggesting Nemesis Commander, not on the field, but, like us, controlling the field. Enemy team would have dif traits when they were in charge, or maybe some of the AI stupidity could be turned down at times. (in PC 1, at least, there was a 'Manstein' level where the AI got to be smarter, so I assume AI is dumb on purpose so that we can win.) Maybe if Nemesis Commander appears the AI goes to a higher level until you get a decisive or a # of decisives, and enemy high command loses faith in them. Or maybe they get command traits like we have, something like that?

wecker
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Re: The First Nemesis: Comandante Vega

Post by wecker » Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:03 pm

Of the mentioned Generals Rommel liked to lead from the front - so it could be a small possibility. But I don`t think he would participate in tactical situations.

According to Wikipedia there have been two attempts from british Special Operations Teams to capture/kill Rommel. So this could be a side-track with an auxilliary unit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Flipper

I am not shure whether this would be worth the effort.

By capturing or killing Rommel you would drastically change the course of historical events - something I wouldn`t approve of...except maybe the end of WW2 with a clash of western powers with the Soviet Union.

Churchill had some plans:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable

But you know that already I suppose :D

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Re: The First Nemesis: Comandante Vega

Post by Moransky » Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:35 pm

I don't like the idea to resurrect Nemesis commanders. And think that 1 "Life" is enough. DLC1 has too many elements of survival MMO like mission 12 (Ebro). Not needable to add another one - I want to play tactical strategy. And don't want yo play survival or tower defense.

And I think that we should get rewards for killing Nemesis. 500 prestige, core slots, unique equipment etc. Something that equal to morale boost that got armies in real life when killed or captured strong enemies.

FunPolice749
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Re: The First Nemesis: Comandante Vega

Post by FunPolice749 » Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:00 am

On my first play though I was on generalissimo without heroes (also my perks were Trophies of war and Battle Academy just so people don't think I was doing super cheesy stuff like super massive encirclement or splitting units 5 times to surround and force surrenders) and I kinda just crushed him without really a second thought. He ran into a force of mine and did deal a good chunk of damage to a panzer I but after that I hit him with a bomber and surrounded him with some recons. He spent the next few turns retreating as I suppressed his entire health and eventually I surrounded him and forced a surrender for a ton of vickers. Needless to say for me I essentially got nothing out of the nemesis mechanic with Vega. I plan to eventually go back and intentionally let him live to see what type of monster he turns into but I haven't done so yet. I like the idea of nemesis getting 1 extra life so they have at least one additional chance of causing problems since I felt like right now he was not much more than a single elite that I would see in like the normal Wehrmacht campaign.

Here's another idea for possible nemesis but maybe have multiple units under the nemesis command? So people need to kill several units in order to completely wipe away a commander. It would possible make it so the commander isn't as easy to surround and also possibly more likely for one of those units to survive and in turn keep the nemesis alive.

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Re: The First Nemesis: Comandante Vega

Post by Kerensky » Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:20 am

FunPolice749 wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:00 am
Here's another idea for possible nemesis but maybe have multiple units under the nemesis command? So people need to kill several units in order to completely wipe away a commander. It would possible make it so the commander isn't as easy to surround and also possibly more likely for one of those units to survive and in turn keep the nemesis alive.
Interesting... and this is very similar in tune to my idea of having a group of Nemesis units. But this time, it is not a bunch of individual Nemesis, but one whole Nemesis squad, and if a piece of the squad survives, it then reforms the rest of the unit. Only through complete annihilation will the entire unit cease to exist.

Could work, definitely worth considering.

I actually like this idea because it's more opportunity to color enemy unit plates. For example, standard French forces are of course using the 'blue' color plate. But the faction allied to them (also French) uses the Red color plates. This makes detecting who is part of the Nemesis squad and who is just a regular French unit like night and day. :mrgreen:

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Re: The First Nemesis: Comandante Vega

Post by BaronVonWalrus » Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:47 am

Kerensky wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:31 am
sakura006 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:58 am
I love the idea of the Nemesis enemy, they add some RPG elements to the campaign. But to be honest, as long as they can be encircled and surrendered, they don't pose a real threat. I actually intentionally encircled him and let him live until the last mission. But he can only cause a bit trouble in the first turn he appeared. After that, he was just encircled and then bombed until out of ammo.
I often gave the Nemesis escorts, but they get stripped away pretty easily because they're just normal units.

I wonder if a Nemesis squad will be more interesting. 5 units working in tandem, each with the ability to persist into future scenarios. And with 5, you might want to focus them down one at a time, because trying to engage all 5 at once could hurt too much.

Take 1 down the first time you meet the squad. Next encounter there are only 4 left, and you might cut another one down on next encounter...

It's a bit of work to set up, but the foundation is in place, so it's possible to do.
You could easily set up an elite brigade or even division-sized force this way and their recurring appearance in your area of operations would certainly be realistic, challenging and immersive......as long as they weren't laughably overpowered in the sum of their component parts. (Unless, of course, a scenario is created where you have to put a stop to that force rampaging all over the place!)

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Re: The First Nemesis: Comandante Vega

Post by PanzerG » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:41 am

Liked the way it works now, however, shouldnt the reward for killing him be higher ? So I get 8x his tank (trophy trait...) and thats it ? I havent seen that tank elsewhere yet, (just the first3 scenarioas done), so I might be unable to use it.

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Re: The First Nemesis: Comandante Vega

Post by Kerensky » Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:31 pm

PanzerG wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:41 am
Liked the way it works now, however, shouldnt the reward for killing him be higher ? So I get 8x his tank (trophy trait...) and thats it ? I havent seen that tank elsewhere yet, (just the first3 scenarioas done), so I might be unable to use it.
Incorporating Nemesis into reward systems is tough... because when the players engages the Nemesis and defeats it is entirely variable. Tying rewards to something that could happen in the 5th, 7th, 13th, or very final scenario of a campaign, kind of a problem.

Not insurmountable of course, but the reward could easily be something like a nice little prestige injection or equipment bounty. Tie that into the Nemesis Death output script... sure that's possible.

nexusno2000
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Re: The First Nemesis: Comandante Vega

Post by nexusno2000 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:39 am

I recently became aware that if you don't kill Com. Vega, he'll actually appear again in the later scenarios.

But I always surround him and capture him at Merida...what a bummer.

I think I will change the lua files so that his death isn't permanent. That we'll think he's gone, but he'll return for all 5 battles :D

Because who doesn't love this:
  • Merida 15 str Vickers
  • Early Madrid 15 str Vickers
  • Brunete 15 str OT-133
  • Ebro 15 str OT-133
  • Madrid '39 20 str 0T-133
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KesaAnna
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Re: The First Nemesis: Comandante Vega

Post by KesaAnna » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:15 am

Here's a flavor and fluff idea ( which is typically what I'm good for ) ;

When we successfully kill the nemesis we get a pop - up ; a portrait of the nemesis commander draped in black creche.

In this particular context , the SCW was a pretty nasty political cat fight , not to mention with all the personal and rather intimate bad blood a civil war typically engenders . So , in this particular context , a picture of a gruesome corpse propped up for display surrounded by bystanders posing for the camera with big grins would be a really nice touch.

I suppose that might be a bit too provocative though .

I'm satisfied that Francisco Franco makes an in - person appearance in this dlc.

And Capitana Ana Sofia Vega was a very nice touch .

nexusno2000
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Re: The First Nemesis: Comandante Vega

Post by nexusno2000 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:14 am

I have made a mini-mod featuring Commandante Vega :idea:

He can appear 5 times, but if he dies, he's gone. :cry:

Merida 15 str Vickers
Early Madrid 15 str Vickers
Brunete 15 str OT-133
Ebro 15 str OT-133
Madrid '39 20 str 0T-133

I've tweaked the scripts that make the game recognize Commandante Vega's death, making him return from the dead every time you kill him. It doesn't matter how many times you kill him - every time, or just some of the time - he will return (for the next mission he's available in). Anna will still think her brother dead, until Madrid 1939, when you get final confirmation (if you kill him).

DL here: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AmLOw84tw_3Yg4k3G7V ... Q?e=CYCSvJ

The zip contains 5 tweaked lua files.

Unpack the files into C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Panzer Corps 2\PanzerCorps2\Content\Campaigns\ and overwrite.
Last edited by nexusno2000 on Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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nexusno2000
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Re: The First Nemesis: Comandante Vega

Post by nexusno2000 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:35 pm

Added a new version with more robust scripting:

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AmLOw84tw_3Yg4k3G7V ... Q?e=CYCSvJ

A 6th file, script.lua is included. Here the number of nemesis lives can be changed. The default is 5, so Vega will appear all 5 times, even if killed. But you can change it to anything between 1 and 5.
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Andy2012
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Re: The First Nemesis: Comandante Vega

Post by Andy2012 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:25 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:42 pm
What are your thoughts on this special enemy unit from the Spanish Civil War?

Is it interesting to see an enemy unit that is extra special in many ways? (OS, heroes, connection with characters, potential to appear more than once)
This first Nemesis was an experiment in many ways, so your thoughts on the concepts are greatly appreciated.

In future, spending a very long time on certain fronts opens up big potential for more Nemesis level enemies. I think there are more than a few historical Soviet figures who deserve this level of treatment to give them the extra special recognition they deserve.

For players who struggled against him, how do you feel about being able to 'chase him off' by throwing an airstrike at him, instead of the unit just attacking suicidally until destroyed as traditional 'attacker' AI units behave?

For those that did knock him out, do you think such a Nemesis unit should have more than 1 total 'life' in future campaigns? Or do you think putting him down once should be all it takes to remove it from all potential future appearances?
I think a nemesis should maybe come back to fight another day if you destroy him too early. You should still get a reward, though. After a certain point in the campaign however, his death should be final.

Speaking about death, this dlc is really putting me under a lot strain. The increase in difficulty from the main campaign is quite substantial and I find that several gameplay additions / decisions and units really make this a bit of a slog, sometimes.
- inferior, flimsy equipment
- being outnumbered, mostly
- AI allies being the backbone of your force and behaving sometimes counterproductively
- AI allies tapping your supply pool for useless reinforcements after attacks on tanks in the open after I told them to defend and hold
- zero per turn prestige
- really a lot of things and objectives going on for each map, feels overcrowded and the player may lose focus

At times, I this reminded me of my experience playing OoB: Burma Road, especially the Operation Longcloth mission. While I did see a lot of original thoughts there (and you cannot ignore the Chindits in that campaign), a lot of gameplay elements did not work out in practice or required knowledge on the level of a designer or hardcore tester, not a player. Altogether, this turned it into a clunky experience I was happy to get behind me. Never replayed. And while I dont want to be mean and have no experience in designing games (and appreciate you taking so much time to discuss things with us here), this DLC feels off for me. Please do experiment with new gameplay elements, but dont add too many. Panzercorps 2 worked (for me at least) around the following facts: Player has fewer units, but superior stats and exp and total control about positioning to exploit game rules, rewards are upgrades. SCW changes too many variables in that equation and has too often turned into a frustrating grind (especially early Madrid, those are just too many superior enemy units. Getting almost annihilated is no fun, even though it may have historically correct).

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Re: The First Nemesis: Comandante Vega

Post by Rifraff » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:21 pm

Please don't tell us that the female Vega is a communist and we will meet her again in a souped up t34 on the Russian front.. Please

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Re: The First Nemesis: Comandante Vega

Post by dalfrede » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:10 pm

Rifraff wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:21 pm
Please don't tell us that the female Vega is a communist and we will meet her again in a souped up t34 on the Russian front.. Please
The female Vega was/is fighting against the communist, her brother was fighting for/allied with the communist.
She was a staff officer, not a combatant, if she shows up again it would be in briefing/debriefing not combat.

As for her brother, well how evil do you think the Devs are.
. . . Wait don't answer. :mrgreen:
There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.

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Re: The First Nemesis: Comandante Vega

Post by Kerensky » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:07 pm

dalfrede wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:10 pm
The female Vega was/is fighting against the communist, her brother was fighting for/allied with the communist.
She was a staff officer, not a combatant, if she shows up again it would be in briefing/debriefing not combat.

As for her brother, well how evil do you think the Devs are.
. . . Wait don't answer. :mrgreen:
Yea, Ana Sofia was definitely hardline Nationalist, it was her brother who was the Communist. And when I say Communist, I mean he really was Communist. If he survives to Madrid 1939, you see that he is a leader of the Communist forces, while Colonel Casado (historical figure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segismundo_Casado) leads the Republican forces against them.

As for Nemesis in Russia... I'm not really aware of any Spanish fighting in Russia, except for the Blue Division siding with the Germans. So no we almost certainly won't see too many foreign Nemesis units by the time the campaign reaches Russia, though the choice of elite Soviet opponents is going to be super interesting to explore. I already have some in mind...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvNGBPAsdoE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFEZnscW8KA

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Re: The First Nemesis: Comandante Vega

Post by Kerensky » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:12 pm

Andy2012 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:25 pm

At times, I this reminded me of my experience playing OoB: Burma Road, especially the Operation Longcloth mission. While I did see a lot of original thoughts there (and you cannot ignore the Chindits in that campaign), a lot of gameplay elements did not work out in practice or required knowledge on the level of a designer or hardcore tester, not a player. Altogether, this turned it into a clunky experience I was happy to get behind me. Never replayed. And while I dont want to be mean and have no experience in designing games (and appreciate you taking so much time to discuss things with us here), this DLC feels off for me. Please do experiment with new gameplay elements, but dont add too many. Panzercorps 2 worked (for me at least) around the following facts: Player has fewer units, but superior stats and exp and total control about positioning to exploit game rules, rewards are upgrades. SCW changes too many variables in that equation and has too often turned into a frustrating grind (especially early Madrid, those are just too many superior enemy units. Getting almost annihilated is no fun, even though it may have historically correct).
I would say that OOB Burma felt more like a Panzer Corps campaign rather than SCW feeling like an OOB campaign.

And we've seen lots of complaints over base game Panzer Corps 2 scenarios being too small. Well people wanted bigger battles, even in their early war content, and now they have them. Which makes people who like the small battles feel a bit overwhelmed I guess.

Can't please everyone I'm afraid. :lol:

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Re: The First Nemesis: Comandante Vega

Post by Kerensky » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:21 pm

Andy2012 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:25 pm
- zero per turn prestige
- really a lot of things and objectives going on for each map, feels overcrowded and the player may lose focus
Start of mission, capturing flags, and capturing enemy units is so much prestige, we put those gigantic % loss prestige sinks. I don't see how prestige per turn matters (except in defensive missions where it replacing flag capture income of course)

As for maps crowded with objectives, well I would argue the majority of players are fed up with nothing but 'Capture All Victory Hexes' over and over and over. :P

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Re: The First Nemesis: Comandante Vega

Post by Rifraff » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:37 pm

As for Nemesis in Russia... I'm not really aware of any Spanish fighting in Russia, except for the Blue Division siding with the Germans
Have you not read any Sven Hassel? Barcelona Blom will be in my spearhead, along with Tiny. Porta and the Old man.

Oops, he wasn't Spanish.. Nothing but a damn commie.. There's an idea :roll:

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