SCW - What's the Point?

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kverdon
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by kverdon » Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:38 pm

dalfrede wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:47 am
kverdon wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:32 am
. . . I then gave the AI controlled Nationalist cavalry the order to attack thinking they would then swarm through the gap and head towards their encircled comrades at Teruel.
Give the attack order the first turn.
Bring Italian Infantry to the city, the Nationalist often get distracted and forget to take the VH. So be prepared to do it yourself.

The Bonus is more complicated, There is a long discussion of it on this forum, but it may it the Beta.
In short sneak out to the east early. It is not foolproof but it works if you can avoid the Rep. reinforcements coming to the city from the NE.

Edit:Found it.
https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewto ... 4&t=100244
This is exactly what I did. I executed the attack order on the 1rst turn and did manage to save the Bonus unit (though it's hugely counter-intuitive as to how) the problem was with the attack order execution on 2 levels.

First off this highlights the problem of "one order does not fit all". This happens in other scenarios but it's more of a major issue with Teruel. You need the units in Teruel to defend, not attack, and you need the Cavalry to attack and not defend. This would be fine if you could give different orders to each group, but alas, you cannot. It would be at least good if in the scenario designer, you could give certain units orders that would supersede the general order.

The second is the attack order itself, you just order "ATTACK!!!" but you cannot even designate an objective. When I issued the attack order on turn one I got a almost perfect computer simulation of... Brownian Motion... Even though I had carefully opened a hole to the SE and focused my artillery on targets to the SE, the cavalry headed off just about every where else to attack anything they could see, often times with little sense. I more than once had to reload a turn and divert my core units to destroy a 1 pt pillbox because 3 or 4 AI Cavalry units took off in the wrong direction and then all fruitlessly tried to attack it. Sometimes for multiple turns. Again the scenario designer should be at least able to designate the AI units to attack in the general direction of an objective.

It all led to a rather aggravating scenario. Usually, at the completion of a given scenario, even those that are difficult and require replaying a time or 2 to get right, I'm fairly satisfied with the outcome and am eagerly awaiting the next scenario in the series. At the conclusion of Teruel, I was just glad to be done with it. I had zero thoughts of replaying it and even had little relish for refitting my units and starting the next one.

PanzerG
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by PanzerG » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:45 pm

My only issue with the spanish ai: they seem to be magically attracted by the pillboxes....
Instead of just avoiding them and attack the relevant targets (when on attack) they just go against the pillboxes.

nexusno2000
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by nexusno2000 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:08 pm

PanzerG wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:45 pm
My only issue with the spanish ai: they seem to be magically attracted by the pillboxes....
Instead of just avoiding them and attack the relevant targets (when on attack) they just go against the pillboxes.
The AI looks at combat prediction, so I guess if it looks favorable on paper it will attack...

On Teurel map use 88 flak to remove the pillboxes so the cav don't get distracted.
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Retributarr
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Retributarr » Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:34 pm

PanzerG wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:45 pm
My only issue with the spanish ai: they seem to be magically attracted by the pillboxes.... Instead of just avoiding them and attack the relevant targets (when on attack) they just go against the pillboxes.
I-Agree!!!... that rankled me as well!... this 'sorry-situation' needs resolving... It makes no sense to just keep "Futilely"-mindlessly repeating an impossible assault.
What is needed in an 'Override-Instruction' that can be initiated by the player to the 'AI-Entity'... to by-pass/aviod certain targets... or to have the 'Ai' scripted or whatever to cease 'an-action' if 'No-Results' are being delivered from the assault.

Altermann
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Altermann » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:34 pm

nexusno2000 wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:25 pm
Altermann wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:41 pm
I'm sorry, but I did not pay Cdn $100 to get some little backwater Spanish Civil war DLC, which had very little to do with WW2. Yes it was a terrible conflict, as all Civil Wars are, but for this game it should have been included in the original game as a Campaign and NOT as a DLC, or, better idea, not even included at all!

So far, for me, this game in no way continues the great game that PC1 was/is, much the same way that Panzer General 2 did not continue the original PG game. What will the next DLC be?? The battle of Eritrea by the Italians, or the Anschluss of Austria, or perhaps the taking of Czechoslovakia! If this is all we can expect for the 2nd DLC this game will quickly take over a spot in my bookcase, to never be looked at again!

I had such high hopes for this game to expand PC1, and some things I do like, in this game, are things like Traits, giving orders to satellite armies, splitting units, to name a few, but it needs much more!
Sorry, but you already did pay, willingly I might add, knowing that you did not, in fact, know what kind of DLCs would be released first. So why whine now?

Btw: You already know that the next DLC will be Axis Operations (i.e. Germany) and set in 1939. And that its main focus is the Polish campaign (or at least that can be inferred).
Excuse me, but me paying any amount of $ to purchase this game gives me every right to "Whine", as you so adeptly put it, and is why I have to "listen" to your great depths of wisdom! As for the next DLC, they should have started with the Polish campaign and not included these backwater battles, that in real life only gave the Germans their ideas for Carpet bombing of cities, that being used to such "great effect" in this game!

kanada
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by kanada » Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:17 pm

Well, I liked the DLC, I liked the idea of starting in Spain, and I don't feel I'm alone in that.
Also, declaring Spain a backwater where nothing of interest happened is pretty bold. If we are going to "rank" wars, Poland is the backwater conflict, with its whole 5 weeks of fighting (which isn't to discount the resistance of the Polish army and people in '39 and during the rest of the war). Just because most pop histories pick up the narrative in Poland and not in Spain doesn't make it less important or less interesting. Moving towards a more broad exploration of the second world war couldn't be more welcome in a genre that so often suffers from a really simplified view of the war.

Retributarr
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Retributarr » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:54 am

kanada wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:17 pm
Well, I liked the DLC, I liked the idea of starting in Spain, and I don't feel I'm alone in that.

Just because most pop histories pick up the narrative in Poland and not in Spain doesn't make it less important or less interesting.

Moving towards a more broad exploration of the second world war couldn't be more welcome in a genre that so often suffers from a really simplified view of the war.
Yeeeaaauuuhhh!!!... that is how "EgZaktakilly"... the way that I see the situation too "kanada"!.

I am personally "very-open" to trying out 'randomly-explored historical episodes in WWII',... why not see what they can do for a Campaign!... for a Game!... for the Immersion aspect!... instead of just constantly-repeatedly running around... re-hashing the same routine again and again!. That's much like watching an 'Old-Boring-Movie' a hundred times over!. Who-Needs-That?.

"kanada"!... Welcome!!! to the 'Forum'... I and others hope to hear more from you!... you are 'Not-Alone' in this 'Mindset' of opening up the WWII saga in Gaming!. I'm from "Canada" too!. It seems like these wide open spaces in Canada along with the cooler temperatures here... allow us to have a more expanded viewpoint on matters... and apparently to then be able to see what others just cannot see or cannot 'Ever' understand!.

Patrat
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Patrat » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:58 am

kanada wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:17 pm
Well, I liked the DLC, I liked the idea of starting in Spain, and I don't feel I'm alone in that.
Also, declaring Spain a backwater where nothing of interest happened is pretty bold. If we are going to "rank" wars, Poland is the backwater conflict, with its whole 5 weeks of fighting (which isn't to discount the resistance of the Polish army and people in '39 and during the rest of the war). Just because most pop histories pick up the narrative in Poland and not in Spain doesn't make it less important or less interesting. Moving towards a more broad exploration of the second world war couldn't be more welcome in a genre that so often suffers from a really simplified view of the war.
This guy gets it.

I'm not a veteran of panzer general or panzer corps, but I've been playing war games since the late 1960s. And I'm happy to see a war game that just doesn't hit just the highlights, like most games do.

I really think that panzer Corps 2 grand campaign is going to become legendary in the war gaming community, simply because it's doing the more broad exploration of the war, just like you said.
This breaking news just in,,,,
Generalissimo Francisco Franco,,,, Is Still Dead!

Here's a follow up to that story,,,,
Generalissimo Francisco Franco is valiantly struggling to remain dead!
(Chevy Chase SNL Weekend Update 1975)

UrbanKelly
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by UrbanKelly » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:04 pm

KesaAnna wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:26 am
Retributarr wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:15 pm
SCW ... Additional-After-Thought-Commentary:

For "Enhanced-Game-Immersion"... I would have so much liked to see to have seen for instance... some posturing and verbal support statements from "Mussolini & Adolf Hitler" for their involvement in the Spanish Civil War...
In the Panzer General I played so many years ago , you never see the face of the guy who gives you the briefings , and he is not in any other way identified , but there was a clue , maybe a thin clue , and I can't remember what the clue was , ( we are talking about a 20 year old ( ? ) memory here ) but the clue gave me the impression that the guy briefing you was Adolf Hitler.

As for introducing him into the game in any but the most deprecating way .... I'm afraid that would be no less a hot potato than introducing swastikas into the game.

I thought it was pretty daring to put Franco in the game. But then , frankly , outside of Spain , who , really , is going to get their panties in a twist over Francisco Franco ?
Certainly the reaction among nine out of ten Americans would be ; " Franco Who ? "

And , on that score , I don't think Mussolini would be particularly provocative either.

---

Anyway , what's the point of SCW ?

-- Well , if you are role - playing European Fascist / extreme right - wing , then , arguably , WW II really does begin in 1936 , in Spain.

-- You get to play around with equipment you either never see , or would never use in any case , in the generic campaign.

As for equipment you never see , you get the embryonic Luftwaffe . Until I played SCW I never paid any attention to the German biplane fighter , and certainly never saw it , or used it , in a game.
Likewise the German biplane tactical bomber . Until I played SCW I wasn't aware that ( according to Wikipedia ) the Germans were so fond of their biplane tactical bomber that , even after the introduction of the Stuka , they continued to use it up until 1943 , and only quit using it then because they ran out of spare parts.
Having played with it in Spain , I've become pretty fond of it myself !

You get the first model of the Stuka.

You get an aerial recon other than the Fiesler Storch.

Where else , and when else , would you get to use equipment like the Trubia tank ? And you would at least have to wait a long time to get to use the Russian 203 mm 1931 howitzer.

As for equipment you would otherwise never use in the generic campaign ; Who ever uses horse - drawn artillery , or cavalry , in the generic campaign ?

-- For those of us who wanted an Italian campaign , or the opportunity to use lots and lots of Italian equipment , you already get basically that in SCW.

-- Precisely because of the limitations of SCW , at least some of us wind up learning some pretty neat and useful things. For example , because of the weakness of my tanks , and other limitations , in SCW I learned how to use towed AT , and with some effectiveness too ! Previously , my use of towed AT was awful , and consequently the unit was plain worthless to me. Now I Love my towed AT !

Again , because my tanks are so weak , I actually learned how to use towed light AA guns in ground attack with some effectiveness. Previously I never used a 3.7cm in ground attack because , while I did once get lucky , my AA gun always got spanked badly in ground attack. Now I seem to acquire half my experience in light AA guns with ground attack.

I don't suppose at this point in history cavalry is ever going to be a world -beater , but I have become at least incrementally better at using it. Good enough , I think , to make it worth my while to spend 3 slots on Italian cavalry instead of on another unit of Italian infantry. This might be useful in the future if we ever do get an Italian campaign , because the Italians never get half - tracks , and so the Italians are somewhat handicapped in mobility .

-- Experience is always good. In SCW recon is as effective as tanks. That means you will be going into Poland with some already very - well - trained recon , or converted into another very - well - trained unit you prefer. Likewise , you can now go into Poland with some already decently trained fighters , tac bombers , strat bombers , AA and AT guns , and tanks.

-- At least some of us are and / or were , Condor Legion / SCW fans . :mrgreen:
I absolutely agree with you. very deep thoughts that respond within me.

U235
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by U235 » Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:10 am

Here I thought the point of the SCW DLC was to see how the lieutenant and captiana's budding relationship works out. :oops:

ErissN6
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by ErissN6 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:54 am

Patrat wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:58 am
I really think that panzer Corps 2 grand campaign is going to become legendary in the war gaming community, simply because it's doing the more broad exploration of the war, just like you said.
It could, but it lacks UI and adapted gameplay:
3D is not enough good, nor strategical 2D to play with instead.
Gameplay is bad because some scenario ask something special, but the rules were not modified for this, like Chekoslovakia where we have to not destroy any unit: If you attack and the game tells you will do 1 loss, it may do 5...

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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Kerensky » Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:24 am

U235 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:10 am
Here I thought the point of the SCW DLC was to see how the lieutenant and captiana's budding relationship works out. :oops:
That is a part of it... and a part that continues as the DLC have progressed.

Their story, plus Commendation Point systems, are the two foundations of the DLC that have been present from the start. Other systems have come, gone, or gotten tweaked and heavily revisioned. :)

U235
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by U235 » Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:15 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:24 am
U235 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:10 am
Here I thought the point of the SCW DLC was to see how the lieutenant and captiana's budding relationship works out. :oops:
That is a part of it... and a part that continues as the DLC have progressed.

Their story, plus Commendation Point systems, are the two foundations of the DLC that have been present from the start. Other systems have come, gone, or gotten tweaked and heavily revisioned. :)
Of course, my comment was an attempt at humor, but I must admit it is an interesting twist to the usual combat brief. Maybe the last DLC made for PC2 could have the Captiana smuggling the Lieutenant (now Hauptmann) out of Germany, via Spain after the surrender. I'm enjoying the game immensely so far, just finishing up Poland.

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