Legio Palatina price anomaly

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
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pompeytheflatulent
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Legio Palatina price anomaly

Post by pompeytheflatulent » Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:24 pm

Auxilia Palatina (superior/protected/light spear+darts) is priced at 54 points, 6 points cheaper than its equivalent impact foot, Veteran Dalami (superior/protected/impact foot).

Meanwhile Legio Palatina (superior/armored/light spear+darts) is priced at 78 points, the exact same price as its equivalent impact foot, Roman Legionaries (superior/armored/impact foot).

Is this intended or did Legio Palatina slip through the cracks during one of the patches that re-balanced pricing?
Last edited by pompeytheflatulent on Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Paul59
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Re: Legio Palatina price anomaly

Post by Paul59 » Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:42 pm

pompeytheflatulent wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:24 pm
Auxilia Palatina (superior/protected/light spear+darts) is priced at 54 points, 6 points cheaper than its equivalent impact foot, Veteran Dalami (superior/protected/impact foot).

Meanwhile Legio Palatina (superior/armored/light spear+darts) is priced at 78 points, the exact same price as its equivalent impact foot, Roman Legionaries (superior/protected/impact foot).

Is this intended or did Legio Palatina slip through the cracks during one of the patches that re-balanced pricing?
The Auxilia Palatina used to be the same points cost as the Veteran Dailami (54 points) up to the 1.5.12 patch. That patch changed the points cost for Superior or better quality non-deep some Armour, Protected or Unprotected Impact Foot from 1 to 2 points per 100 UnitSize. The change did not affect the Veteran Legionaries because they are armoured.

If I remember correctly there was a lot of feedback from players that units such as the Veteran Dailami and the Zealots were way too cost effective.
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Re: Legio Palatina price anomaly

Post by kronenblatt » Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:12 pm

This calls for a regression analysis with all relevant parameters as input... ;)
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Re: Legio Palatina price anomaly

Post by Cunningcairn » Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:57 am

Paul59 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:42 pm
pompeytheflatulent wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:24 pm
Auxilia Palatina (superior/protected/light spear+darts) is priced at 54 points, 6 points cheaper than its equivalent impact foot, Veteran Dalami (superior/protected/impact foot).

Meanwhile Legio Palatina (superior/armored/light spear+darts) is priced at 78 points, the exact same price as its equivalent impact foot, Roman Legionaries (superior/protected/impact foot).

Is this intended or did Legio Palatina slip through the cracks during one of the patches that re-balanced pricing?
The Auxilia Palatina used to be the same points cost as the Veteran Dailami (54 points) up to the 1.5.12 patch. That patch changed the points cost for Superior or better quality non-deep some Armour, Protected or Unprotected Impact Foot from 1 to 2 points per 100 UnitSize. The change did not affect the Veteran Legionaries because they are armoured.

If I remember correctly there was a lot of feedback from players that units such as the Veteran Dailami and the Zealots were way too cost effective.
Yes this was changed because a number of players agreed it did not feel quite right. The superior, protected, spear of the Arab Conquest and Andalusian lists fit into the same category as the Zealots and Dailami did before they were downgraded. They too should cost more but not many are complaining not because it shouldn't happen but it is not something the majority of players are experiencing hence they have no issue. I think that things are changed because of a popular view rather than on reasonable argument or design philosophy.

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Re: Legio Palatina price anomaly

Post by Paul59 » Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:26 pm

Cunningcairn wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:57 am
Yes this was changed because a number of players agreed it did not feel quite right. The superior, protected, spear of the Arab Conquest and Andalusian lists fit into the same category as the Zealots and Dailami did before they were downgraded. They too should cost more but not many are complaining not because it shouldn't happen but it is not something the majority of players are experiencing hence they have no issue. I think that things are changed because of a popular view rather than on reasonable argument or design philosophy.
I am inclined to agree with you on this issue. I also think the real problem with these unit cost controversies is the high price of armour. I believe the current armour cost is a carryover from the table top rules, but in FOG2 armour is not so effective, so really armour costs should be reduced across the board, but doing that now would entail reducing the cost of all armoured units which obviously could create a lot of problems. It's a shame that this issue was not highlighted before the games release, it could have then been properly Beta tested.
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Re: Legio Palatina price anomaly

Post by kronenblatt » Sat Aug 15, 2020 3:43 pm

Paul59 wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:26 pm
Cunningcairn wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:57 am
Yes this was changed because a number of players agreed it did not feel quite right. The superior, protected, spear of the Arab Conquest and Andalusian lists fit into the same category as the Zealots and Dailami did before they were downgraded. They too should cost more but not many are complaining not because it shouldn't happen but it is not something the majority of players are experiencing hence they have no issue. I think that things are changed because of a popular view rather than on reasonable argument or design philosophy.
I am inclined to agree with you on this issue. I also think the real problem with these unit cost controversies is the high price of armour. I believe the current armour cost is a carryover from the table top rules, but in FOG2 armour is not so effective, so really armour costs should be reduced across the board, but doing that now would entail reducing the cost of all armoured units which obviously could create a lot of problems. It's a shame that this issue was not highlighted before the games release, it could have then been properly Beta tested.
Is the 'high price of armour' problem to some extent linear, in your view? That is, would it go some way towards easing the problem through simply deduct say 1 point per 25 or 50 in armour, e.g., 2 or 4 points cost reduction for 100 armour, across the board? Or would such adjustment need to be non-linear in some way, or maybe even quantified on a case-by-case/unit-by-unit basis (but I guess then it would be extremely difficult)?
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By case Re: Legio Palatina price anomaly

Post by SLancaster » Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:19 pm

Case by case would seem the way to me. It depends on a lot of factors like how many units of x is available to a particular army. Certain armies did seem too strong and tweaks were made. I guess this is the way forward.

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Re: Legio Palatina price anomaly

Post by Paul59 » Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:55 pm

Well I guess I would say that it is non-linear, as the extra armour cost is different depending upon the unit's quality and type. So for instance for Superior Foot they pay 3 extra points (per 100 UnitSize) to go from Protected to Armoured, while Average Foot pay between 1 and 2 (depending upon their armament), and Superior Cavalry pay 4.

The other thing that I wished had been included in the points calculations is a basic cost for a unit, in addition to the extra points costs for armour and weapons. I think that might have solved some of the issues we have with spam armies.
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Re: Legio Palatina price anomaly

Post by MikeC_81 » Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:11 pm

This anomoaly is because the "fix" for things like old 51 point Jewish Zealots as well as the old 48 point Roman Auxiliaries that we ended up settling on was a bit of a hack. When a more generalized system was applied to try and make them work across the board, it distorted other things like creating super cheap units elsewhere and because RBS wanted to hold Roman Legionaries (who have armour) at the same cost while fixing the problem of armour being overcosted for Average Quality troops. So the answer was the modify Impact foot specifically at those levels that Paul described.

You can read the entire discussion here viewtopic.php?f=477&t=90532&hilit=armour

The issue with the Muslim Off Spears is from a different problem in the point costing formula. They are hyper efficient because they are one of the very few Heavy Foot units that are Superior but also managed to not have the Drilled attribute assigned to it which costs 1 point per model. Combine that with the fact they also don't have armour and are only Protected, it means that they are pound for pound the best Heavy Foot unit in the game at 54 points. The Drilled attribute being overcosted affects other things like Citizen Hoplites being better buys than Merc Hoplites and 'Al Shabib units being awful at 42 points while Pre-Islamic Arab City Foot are an acceptable 36 points.

I PM'd RBS about this several weeks ago rather than making a thread about it becuase the potential post had other ideas that I haven't really thought out well enough to put on the forums formally. I have been busy and still haven't. Maybe we will see something in the next beta though for Drilled.
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