Suggestion - Change "Fortify"

Fantasy General II - Invasion is the reimagination of the strategy game classic from the 90s!

Armies once again draw battle-lines on the war-torn land of Keldonia, and a new generation of commanders will test their bravery and tactics against each other. Fantasy wargaming is back!
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brettwjohnson
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Suggestion - Change "Fortify"

Post by brettwjohnson » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:56 pm

I'm playing the Invasion campaign again (and enjoying the updates, like the training camp).
Repeating an suggestion I made after my first play thru and seeing the same problem with this play thru.

I suggest changing "Fortify" to allowing it to be used after move, instead of only allowing if the unit doesn't move.
This would allow units to move and fortify instead of move and attack (which as a defensive unit, is exactly right).

Using "Spear Maidens" (a L2 unit (i.e., 1 upgrade from base class)) as an exemplar... As currently implemented, they are primarily defensive units. However, by the time they move into position (to defend), they typically take a bunch of kills/wounds from enemy units before they even get the chance to fortify. This makes their ability mostly pointless. Currently, I only buy them as a stepping stone to winged Valkyries and can't wait to get rid of them.

If we compare Spear Maidens to Beserkers (both L2 units), Beserkers have a bunch of useful abilities (Ambush, All Terrain, Slayer), while Spear Maidens have the mostly useless "Fortify."

Changing Fortify to allow it to work after movement would make it a decent defensive ability, rather than one that is (mostly) currently pointless.

OBG_primetide
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Re: Suggestion - Change "Fortify"

Post by OBG_primetide » Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:13 pm

you know what - I want to give that a try. We need to make sure that fortify does not simply make you into a mobile advance tank...but I agree with the use case.
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brettwjohnson
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Re: Suggestion - Change "Fortify"

Post by brettwjohnson » Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:37 pm

Glad to hear it was useful...

IMHO, this will make Spear Maidens at least somewhat viable.

Comparing the current power levels (i.e., balance) of Spear Maidens to Beserkers, Beserkers are by far the better unit. (amazing attackers, can ambush, -30% to kills). Beserkers are probably just a little too good...

Fortify gives Spear Maidens the same immunity (albeit "perfect") to kills that Beserkers get as a default passive.

Note also, the player is on the offense most of the time in the vast majority of scenarios (I think all in the Invasion campaign), which inherently biases the value of offensive units over defensive units - even if they are perfectly balanced in the general utility sense...

WarHomer
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Re: Suggestion - Change "Fortify"

Post by WarHomer » Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:21 am

brettwjohnson wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:56 pm
I'm playing the Invasion campaign again (and enjoying the updates, like the training camp).
Repeating an suggestion I made after my first play thru and seeing the same problem with this play thru.

I suggest changing "Fortify" to allowing it to be used after move, instead of only allowing if the unit doesn't move.
This would allow units to move and fortify instead of move and attack (which as a defensive unit, is exactly right).

Using "Spear Maidens" (a L2 unit (i.e., 1 upgrade from base class)) as an exemplar... As currently implemented, they are primarily defensive units. However, by the time they move into position (to defend), they typically take a bunch of kills/wounds from enemy units before they even get the chance to fortify. This makes their ability mostly pointless. Currently, I only buy them as a stepping stone to winged Valkyries and can't wait to get rid of them.

If we compare Spear Maidens to Beserkers (both L2 units), Beserkers have a bunch of useful abilities (Ambush, All Terrain, Slayer), while Spear Maidens have the mostly useless "Fortify."

Changing Fortify to allow it to work after movement would make it a decent defensive ability, rather than one that is (mostly) currently pointless.
+1

OBG_primetide
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Re: Suggestion - Change "Fortify"

Post by OBG_primetide » Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:27 am

We tried it, we tested it and we think we will add it into the next patch.
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brettwjohnson
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Re: Suggestion - Change "Fortify"

Post by brettwjohnson » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:39 pm

Implementation Question from the patch notes...

" Fortify Skill: Fortify now only costs an action, not a move and an action, making units with the skill more useful and versatile. Attention: This means units with the skill will auto-fortify after moving"

I assume that means they will auto-fortify IF they don't attack after moving (i.e., at end of turn, if they still have their action)...

If they are actually auto-fortifying after moving (burning both action & move), then they couldn't move and attack...

These units should be able to:
a) Move and Attack OR
b) Move and Fortify

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Re: Suggestion - Change "Fortify"

Post by OBG_Marko » Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:38 am

you are correct
they will auto-fortify if they have an action left when you end the turn/skip this unit
if they have both actions left and are wounded, they will auto-rest instead

Scrapulous
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Re: Suggestion - Change "Fortify"

Post by Scrapulous » Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:44 pm

I'm a little late to the discussion, but I'm a huge fan of this change. It also makes the fortify items more useful. Thanks!

Molve
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Re: Suggestion - Change "Fortify"

Post by Molve » Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:04 pm

I must say, the way you can't move after acting means a huge change in how to play this type of game.

So often I'm making a ranged attack with my archers/slingers only to get confused I can't move back to allow a fresh melee unit to guard the vulnerable "artillery"...

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Re: Suggestion - Change "Fortify"

Post by OBG_primetide » Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:23 am

But that was the same in FG1 and all along in our game - move-> action...not action-> move
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Molve
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Re: Suggestion - Change "Fortify"

Post by Molve » Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:47 pm

OBG_primetide wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:23 am
But that was the same in FG1
With respect, that game is 25 years old.

I'm not saying your argument isn't valid from the "that's why" angle; I'm saying you should expect most of your customers comparing your game with contemporary offerings (such as Panzer Corps).

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Re: Suggestion - Change "Fortify"

Post by Klaun » Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:52 pm

As a matter of fact, in FG1 you could move after attacking. And there was an undo button. What you could not do: First move several units in place and then attack one after the other.

But there are other games where you cannot move after attacking like WH40k Gladius or Age of Wonders. So it is not an industry standard.

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