FALLSCHIRJAGER PROBLEM..

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adiekmann
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
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Re: FALLSCHIRJAGER PROBLEM..

Post by adiekmann » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:59 am

I rarely use Retrograde trait, but did in AO39. Now, it seemed to have grandfathered over when I imported my core because I can't get FSJ either!! And no, I did not choose Retrograde for AO40. (I double-checked.) But that must be what's going on because they don't appear in the purchase screen either. In fact, neither do any other units that I know are supposed to otherwise be available, like the Ju 88 bomber. This is weird because it's never happened to me before.

Tassadar
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Re: FALLSCHIRJAGER PROBLEM..

Post by Tassadar » Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:12 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:01 am
A lot of 'guides' offer the suggestion to auto pick the retrograde trait, because it's seen as 'free negative points' to enable more positive picks.

Not to be cruel, but I kind of feel this particular trait is working as intended as a NEGATIVE trait. 1940 is a super important year for German paratroopers in many operations, so of course they would be massively impacted by having a delayed availability date.

Really got to carefully consider your negative traits, they really can have huge impacts. I use to treat 'trench slog' as a 'free negative pick', but I realized I couldn't do things like use fighters to chip away at very high entrenchment ratings, and it was forcing me to rely way too much on pioniere type infantry. Even artillery wasn't doing what I needed, which is to safely remove extreme levels of entrenchment from a safe distance.
I actually struggled a bit due to this in two of my AARs, but eventually managed to pull through without paratroopers. Thus what I initially considered a bug, I now indeed see as the challenge that comes with the trait. Not having paratroopers does not make scenarios impossible, just tricky. The exception might be Eben-Emael on Generalissimus, but at this difficulty level not everything can be expected to be reasonably doable and besides, there's the alternative scenario path. But it did require some time to get to this conclusion seeing how I saw Retrograde as a vehicle only trait and never considered the extra implication it causes.

Scrapulous
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
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Re: FALLSCHIRJAGER PROBLEM..

Post by Scrapulous » Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:06 pm

adiekmann wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:59 am
I rarely use Retrograde trait, but did in AO39. Now, it seemed to have grandfathered over when I imported my core because I can't get FSJ either!! And no, I did not choose Retrograde for AO40. (I double-checked.) But that must be what's going on because they don't appear in the purchase screen either. In fact, neither do any other units that I know are supposed to otherwise be available, like the Ju 88 bomber. This is weird because it's never happened to me before.
Any general trait that constrains what you can purchase will apply to the first mission of the next DLC you import your core to. It's an obvious bug, one that has been around since at least AO'39. It applies to Retrograde, Denied Artillery, and Denied Airforce. Any time I take Denied Artillery and Denied Airforce for SCW, I have to remember that I won't be able to purchase those things once I get to Czechoslovakia. It has a compounding effect if you take the general trait that limits your upgrade to three per mission. I have seen it reported multiple times here and on Steam, but it sticks around. It's very easy to reproduce and very easy to test.

Edmon
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Re: FALLSCHIRJAGER PROBLEM..

Post by Edmon » Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:27 pm

Scrapulous wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:06 pm
adiekmann wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:59 am
I rarely use Retrograde trait, but did in AO39. Now, it seemed to have grandfathered over when I imported my core because I can't get FSJ either!! And no, I did not choose Retrograde for AO40. (I double-checked.) But that must be what's going on because they don't appear in the purchase screen either. In fact, neither do any other units that I know are supposed to otherwise be available, like the Ju 88 bomber. This is weird because it's never happened to me before.
Any general trait that constrains what you can purchase will apply to the first mission of the next DLC you import your core to. It's an obvious bug, one that has been around since at least AO'39. It applies to Retrograde, Denied Artillery, and Denied Airforce. Any time I take Denied Artillery and Denied Airforce for SCW, I have to remember that I won't be able to purchase those things once I get to Czechoslovakia. It has a compounding effect if you take the general trait that limits your upgrade to three per mission. I have seen it reported multiple times here and on Steam, but it sticks around. It's very easy to reproduce and very easy to test.
While I am not 100% certain on this, I believe this is intended.

Otherwise, you could select "Denied airforce" or "Denied Artillery" throughout your whole grand campaign, yet still upgrade all of your artillery or aircraft at the start of every DLC.

This is especially broken for "Denied artillery", as artillery doesn't really change that much, so you could buy whatever you needed at the start of every part of the Grand Campaign and never be afflicted with the disadvantage of not being able to buy artillery.

adiekmann
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Re: FALLSCHIRJAGER PROBLEM..

Post by adiekmann » Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:29 pm

Edmon wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:27 pm
Scrapulous wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:06 pm
adiekmann wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:59 am
I rarely use Retrograde trait, but did in AO39. Now, it seemed to have grandfathered over when I imported my core because I can't get FSJ either!! And no, I did not choose Retrograde for AO40. (I double-checked.) But that must be what's going on because they don't appear in the purchase screen either. In fact, neither do any other units that I know are supposed to otherwise be available, like the Ju 88 bomber. This is weird because it's never happened to me before.
Any general trait that constrains what you can purchase will apply to the first mission of the next DLC you import your core to. It's an obvious bug, one that has been around since at least AO'39. It applies to Retrograde, Denied Artillery, and Denied Airforce. Any time I take Denied Artillery and Denied Airforce for SCW, I have to remember that I won't be able to purchase those things once I get to Czechoslovakia. It has a compounding effect if you take the general trait that limits your upgrade to three per mission. I have seen it reported multiple times here and on Steam, but it sticks around. It's very easy to reproduce and very easy to test.
While I am not 100% certain on this, I believe this is intended.

Otherwise, you could select "Denied airforce" or "Denied Artillery" throughout your whole grand campaign, yet still upgrade all of your artillery or aircraft at the start of every DLC.

This is especially broken for "Denied artillery", as artillery doesn't really change that much, so you could buy whatever you needed at the start of every part of the Grand Campaign and never be afflicted with the disadvantage of not being able to buy artillery.
True. I realized very early on that unlike the vanilla campaign, 'Denied Artillery' is one of the easiest negative traits to take. It would only truly be harsh if you couldn't even replace your current/previous artillery units' loses. But as it stands, it only prevents you from buying new artillery and that doesn't even include captured ones!

This bug is new to me because like I said, I almost never have chosen Retrograde before and therefore had no prior experience with it. The thing is that I did not select it for '40 and I still couldn't upgrade anything!

Scrapulous
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
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Re: FALLSCHIRJAGER PROBLEM..

Post by Scrapulous » Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:45 pm

Edmon wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:27 pm
Scrapulous wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:06 pm
adiekmann wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:59 am
I rarely use Retrograde trait, but did in AO39. Now, it seemed to have grandfathered over when I imported my core because I can't get FSJ either!! And no, I did not choose Retrograde for AO40. (I double-checked.) But that must be what's going on because they don't appear in the purchase screen either. In fact, neither do any other units that I know are supposed to otherwise be available, like the Ju 88 bomber. This is weird because it's never happened to me before.
Any general trait that constrains what you can purchase will apply to the first mission of the next DLC you import your core to. It's an obvious bug, one that has been around since at least AO'39. It applies to Retrograde, Denied Artillery, and Denied Airforce. Any time I take Denied Artillery and Denied Airforce for SCW, I have to remember that I won't be able to purchase those things once I get to Czechoslovakia. It has a compounding effect if you take the general trait that limits your upgrade to three per mission. I have seen it reported multiple times here and on Steam, but it sticks around. It's very easy to reproduce and very easy to test.
While I am not 100% certain on this, I believe this is intended.

Otherwise, you could select "Denied airforce" or "Denied Artillery" throughout your whole grand campaign, yet still upgrade all of your artillery or aircraft at the start of every DLC.

This is especially broken for "Denied artillery", as artillery doesn't really change that much, so you could buy whatever you needed at the start of every part of the Grand Campaign and never be afflicted with the disadvantage of not being able to buy artillery.
I might not have been clear.

"Any general trait that constrains what you can purchase will apply to the first mission of the next DLC you import your core to."

So if you choose Denied Artillery for AO-SCW, you will be unable to purchase artillery all throughout AO-SCW. This is working as I believe the designer(s) intended. Fine.

Now, if you then import that core to AO-39 and do not choose Denied Artillery for the AO-39 game, you will nevertheless be unable to purchase artillery during the first scenario of AO-39. This is where I think the obvious bug lies. The Denied Artillery trait imports along with your core and constrains you for that first mission of the next DLC. Other general traits apply to the first mission just fine. If your SCW general didn't have Master of Blitzkrieg but your 39 general does, then in Czechoslovakia your tanks will have +1 move point. But you will not have been able to purchase artillery while preparing for Czechoslovakia, even if your 39 general did not have the Denied Artillery trait.

I can't see how this is working as intended.

Retributarr
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Re: FALLSCHIRJAGER PROBLEM..

Post by Retributarr » Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:12 pm

Scrapulous wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:45 pm
Edmon wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:27 pm
Scrapulous wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:06 pm


Any general trait that constrains what you can purchase will apply to the first mission of the next DLC you import your core to. It's an obvious bug, one that has been around since at least AO'39.
I might not have been clear.
I can't see how this is working as intended.
In other words... this could be a "Non-sequitur": Meaning that... in 'Logic'... "It does not follow".

In my own interpretive description... I would state it as...
---I know that you believe that you think you understand what you heard I said, but!!!... i'm not sure you realize that what you heard... is not what I meant!.---

So there!!!.

Scrapulous
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Re: FALLSCHIRJAGER PROBLEM..

Post by Scrapulous » Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:07 pm

Retributarr wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:12 pm
---I know that you believe that you think you understand what you heard I said, but!!!... i'm not sure you realize that what you heard... is not what I meant!.---
The problem here is that Edmon was paying attention to what I actually typed instead of what I was thinking :)

weaselsden
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Re: FALLSCHIRJAGER PROBLEM..

Post by weaselsden » Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:38 pm

So, if I'm reading all these posts correctly, my problem of NOT getting FJ's in either the Chez Training campaign and then in the Eben-Emael secenario is that I checked "retrograde" in the pints box before the whole thing started? Mind you; the 3 FJ units from the Norway campaign didn't come over after it was completed, either. I have none at all for either scenario after it.

Tassadar
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Re: FALLSCHIRJAGER PROBLEM..

Post by Tassadar » Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:16 pm

weaselsden wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:38 pm
So, if I'm reading all these posts correctly, my problem of NOT getting FJ's in either the Chez Training campaign and then in the Eben-Emael secenario is that I checked "retrograde" in the pints box before the whole thing started? Mind you; the 3 FJ units from the Norway campaign didn't come over after it was completed, either. I have none at all for either scenario after it.
Yes, that's correct. Those 3 paratroopers were auxiliary units, distinguishable by the lack of the marking over the unit strength plate. Auxiliary units that are pre-placed on maps (but not those bought by the player in addition to the core which can be done with the Auxiliary Force trait) do not carry over to further scenarios. Eben-Emael is doable without paratroopers, at least on General level or lower, but that will essentially require a lot of experienced tactical bombers, good heroes and some luck, as in the very bottom post here.

weaselsden
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Re: FALLSCHIRJAGER PROBLEM..

Post by weaselsden » Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:27 am

'Groan' Guess this is where I find out if I'm the military genius I've always knew I was(n't)! Lol! Thanx for all the input, guys!

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