T34/41 and T34/42

A new story begins...
The sequel to a real classic: Panzer Corps is back!

Moderator: Panzer Corps 2 Moderators

Vorskl
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Posts: 523
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:20 pm

Re: T34/41 and T34/42

Post by Vorskl » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:53 pm

IS family production numbers
Up until March 1944 IS-1 was called IS-85, IS-2 was IS-122.
The table starts at October 1943 and goes by month; 1945 is split before and after May 9th
Attachments
IS_family.PNG
IS_family.PNG (84.22 KiB) Viewed 252 times

Vorskl
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Posts: 523
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:20 pm

Re: T34/41 and T34/42

Post by Vorskl » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:15 am

ISU family production
ISU - 152, ISU-122, ISU-122C (S)
Monthly starting from Jan 1944; 1945 split before and after May 9th
Attachments
ISU.PNG
ISU.PNG (131.54 KiB) Viewed 249 times

Vorskl
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Posts: 523
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:20 pm

Re: T34/41 and T34/42

Post by Vorskl » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:24 am

As for drawings, this is likely the most comprehensive source
http://militarylib.com/ww2/ww2-armored- ... eniya.html
or https://cloud.mail.ru/public/LZwW/TJTT9qVmj

Scrapulous
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:54 pm

Re: T34/41 and T34/42

Post by Scrapulous » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:08 pm

It's fascinating that the KV-1 line was switched to KV-1C in the middle of 1942. I assume the KV's weaknesses as a main line tank were evident by then and so they converted the design entirely to infantry support. Or maybe it's just that Chelyabinsk was designated as the source of KV-1Cs and standard KV-1s were produced elsewhere.

The JS production numbers for 1944 all look very suspicious: too round, too precise. Does this mean they are estimates only? Vorskl, does the book explain why the production numbers look this way? The 1945 figures look more like actual figures.

I love that the cover of that book shows an SMK prominently :)

McGuba
Lieutenant Colonel - Elite Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Elite Panther D
Posts: 1344
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:34 pm

Re: T34/41 and T34/42

Post by McGuba » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:36 pm

Scrapulous wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:08 pm
It's fascinating that the KV-1 line was switched to KV-1C in the middle of 1942. I assume the KV's weaknesses as a main line tank were evident by then and so they converted the design entirely to infantry support.
In Russian language the letter "C" stands for the letter "S" in English/Latin alphabet. So the version listed in this chart as "KV-1C" is known as KV-1S in Western sources, the lighter version with the thinner armour which was created so that the KV would be able to keep up with the T-34s in attack. It was not made for infantry support tank, quite the contrary, for speed as the earlier model proved to be too slow. In which it was successful and yet pointless as it offered about the same speed, protection and firepower as the T-34-76, but at a much higher price and requiring more man-hours to make. When they realised it they changed the model again, by adding a 85 mm gun in a bigger turret and creating the KV-85.

To make things even more confusing the Germans tended to name the early KV variants they encountered by the year of production and therefore they used KW-1A (for Model 1940), KW-1B (1941), and KW-1C (1942) in their wartime reports, which entered the English literature as KV-1A, KV-1B and KV-1C after the war. But the Soviets themselves did not make such distinction between these during the war. For them all these were simply KV-1, as seen in the chart.

But it resulted in people confusing the Soviet designation "KV-1C" (KV-1S) with the English version of the German wartime designation KV-1C (KV-1 Model 1942). And it all comes from using a different alphabet.

Or maybe it's just that Chelyabinsk was designated as the source of KV-1Cs and standard KV-1s were produced elsewhere.
It looks like only the Chelyabinsk Plant produced the KV-1 from late 1941, when Leningrad was encircled which basically put an end to the KV production in that city (however, it looks like they managed to assamble a few more from already made parts during the siege). Basically Chelyabinsk took over the production of the KV tank from Leningrad as it only produced a few in the first half of 1941, until which Leningrad was the main producer of the type with over 800 produced there. And the KV-1 model was produced until late summer 1942 when production switched to the KV-1S.
ImageImage
slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=47985
slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=36969

Scrapulous
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:54 pm

Re: T34/41 and T34/42

Post by Scrapulous » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:44 pm

Thanks for the additional context, McGuba. I assumed the C (or S) variant was repurposed for infantry support because I misread Vorskl's note as saying that the C variants were flamethrower tanks, but upon re-reading I see that the note says the KV-8 family is flamethrower tanks. My mistake. It's what I get for trying to multitask.

Vorskl
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Posts: 523
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:20 pm

Re: T34/41 and T34/42

Post by Vorskl » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:06 am

McGuba, thanks for the context, I was not aware of the German naming structure.
In КВ-1С, C stands for 'Fast' in Russian; the model was designed in response to complaints of RKKA commanders that KB-1 was too heavy and slow. The gun was the same 76mm F-34
КВ-85 Is another derivative of KB but with a 85mm gun

A few notes on the production place of KBs.
Originally, there was a Chelyabinsk Traktor plant, to where some equipment and workers from Kharkov motor plant and Leningrad Kirov plant (the original producer of KB) were evacuated. The amalgamated entity was renamed to Chelyabinsk Kirov Plant unofficially known as Tankograd (Tankcity)

Vorskl
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Posts: 523
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:20 pm

Re: T34/41 and T34/42

Post by Vorskl » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:38 am

A few words about the naming conventions in WWII Soviet equipment.
From around 1940 all the equipment was generally named in the form 'Acronym of the head designer(s) surname - model # or Year":
Tu-2 is Tupolev's 2nd model
Pe-8 is Petlyakov's 8th model
PPSH-41 - is literally Sub-Machine (gun) Shpagov - 41 model

Notable exceptions:
- most of the Soviet guns are designed by Grabin. But he intentionally selected an index Ф (F) to name his guns (did not want them to bear his name and selected F to avoid naming conflicts)
- due to some to-be-found reasons, tanks were given an index T-xxx ; hence T-34 should have been rather called K-34 after Koshkin, his genius designer. Not to mention that KV, named after IMHO one of the dumbest Soviet commanders - Voroshilovs - would rather be named E-1 (after his chief designer Yermolaev)

Akkula
Colonel - Ju 88A
Colonel - Ju 88A
Posts: 1519
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:14 am

Re: T34/41 and T34/42

Post by Akkula » Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:36 am

McGuba wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:36 pm
Scrapulous wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:08 pm
It's fascinating that the KV-1 line was switched to KV-1C in the middle of 1942. I assume the KV's weaknesses as a main line tank were evident by then and so they converted the design entirely to infantry support.
In Russian language the letter "C" stands for the letter "S" in English/Latin alphabet. So the version listed in this chart as "KV-1C" is known as KV-1S in Western sources, the lighter version with the thinner armour which was created so that the KV would be able to keep up with the T-34s in attack. It was not made for infantry support tank, quite the contrary, for speed as the earlier model proved to be too slow. In which it was successful and yet pointless as it offered about the same speed, protection and firepower as the T-34-76, but at a much higher price and requiring more man-hours to make. When they realised it they changed the model again, by adding a 85 mm gun in a bigger turret and creating the KV-85.

To make things even more confusing the Germans tended to name the early KV variants they encountered by the year of production and therefore they used KW-1A (for Model 1940), KW-1B (1941), and KW-1C (1942) in their wartime reports, which entered the English literature as KV-1A, KV-1B and KV-1C after the war. But the Soviets themselves did not make such distinction between these during the war. For them all these were simply KV-1, as seen in the chart.

But it resulted in people confusing the Soviet designation "KV-1C" (KV-1S) with the English version of the German wartime designation KV-1C (KV-1 Model 1942). And it all comes from using a different alphabet.

Or maybe it's just that Chelyabinsk was designated as the source of KV-1Cs and standard KV-1s were produced elsewhere.
It looks like only the Chelyabinsk Plant produced the KV-1 from late 1941, when Leningrad was encircled which basically put an end to the KV production in that city (however, it looks like they managed to assamble a few more from already made parts during the siege). Basically Chelyabinsk took over the production of the KV tank from Leningrad as it only produced a few in the first half of 1941, until which Leningrad was the main producer of the type with over 800 produced there. And the KV-1 model was produced until late summer 1942 when production switched to the KV-1S.
A small correction about the KV-1C / KV-1S confusion. They are NOT the same tank
The correct "equivalency" would be:
KV-1 Model 1942 = KV-1C (German designation)
KV-1 Model 1942 Skorostnoy = KV-1S (Soviet/Russian designation)
So, in other words, KV-1C is not the same as KV-1S. The complete list of KV-1 models would be something like this:
KV-1 Model 1939
KV-1 Model 1940
KV-1 Model 1940 Ekranami
KV-1 Model 1941
KV-1 Model 1941 Ekranami
KV-1 Model 1942
KV-1 Model 1942 Skorostnoy (AKA KV-1S)
People tend to confuse the German and Soviet designations and just translate the last letter, which is a mistake as we can see.
Best regards,
Akkula.
Eastern Front: Soviet Storm (v1.96): http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=50342
Modern Conflicts (v1.5): http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=72062

McGuba
Lieutenant Colonel - Elite Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Elite Panther D
Posts: 1344
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:34 pm

Re: T34/41 and T34/42

Post by McGuba » Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:29 pm

Akkula wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:36 am
A small correction about the KV-1C / KV-1S confusion. They are NOT the same tank
Yes of course, that's correct. And I tried to write the same, maybe I wasn't clear. It is just Scrapulous mentioned the "KV-1C" when the orginal Soviet chart lists the "KB-1C" in Russian which equals with the KV-1S in English. In English the KV-1C refers to the German wartime designation KW-1C, which was given to the KV-1 model with the increased armour and ZiS-5 gun produced in 1942. The KV-1S was the later version with the thinner armour and smaller cast turret with higher speed.

This is what happens if we have two alphabets which use different letters for the same phoneme. :)

Vorskl wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:38 am
- due to some to-be-found reasons, tanks were given an index T-xxx
My wild guess would be that the letter "T" is there because it is the first letter of the Russian word "Танк" (Tank), but I might be wrong. But if so, I am happy to accept any royalties. :)
ImageImage
slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=47985
slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=36969

Scrapulous
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:54 pm

Re: T34/41 and T34/42

Post by Scrapulous » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:45 pm

I propose that we ask St. Cyril and his team why they replaced the perfectly serviceable sigma with C. KB-1∑ would eliminate all of our confusion :)

Akkula
Colonel - Ju 88A
Colonel - Ju 88A
Posts: 1519
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:14 am

Re: T34/41 and T34/42

Post by Akkula » Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:08 pm

McGuba wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:29 pm
Akkula wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:36 am
A small correction about the KV-1C / KV-1S confusion. They are NOT the same tank
Yes of course, that's correct. And I tried to write the same, maybe I wasn't clear. It is just Scrapulous mentioned the "KV-1C" when the orginal Soviet chart lists the "KB-1C" in Russian which equals with the KV-1S in English. In English the KV-1C refers to the German wartime designation KW-1C, which was given to the KV-1 model with the increased armour and ZiS-5 gun produced in 1942. The KV-1S was the later version with the thinner armour and smaller cast turret with higher speed.

This is what happens if we have two alphabets which use different letters for the same phoneme. :)
Ohh, my apologies then :)
Yes, it is amazing how confusing the usage of the two designations + two different alphabets can be.
Thats why I prefer to use Russian names for the Soviet tanks and the German names for the German tanks :P

Regards,
Akkula.
Eastern Front: Soviet Storm (v1.96): http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=50342
Modern Conflicts (v1.5): http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=72062

Post Reply

Return to “Panzer Corps 2”