AO1942 and Beyond

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Magni
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Magni » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:17 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:59 pm
Is it though? There are more than a few events that went awry during D-Day, but also so many more successes that could also have gone sideways or not had the impact they did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c844En8XvC4
So many more successes in tactical situations where by all rights success was already achieved long before the actual landings began. The old adage that battles can be won before they are fought was in full effect during the landings.

Yes, if we made it so that literally every single thing the Allies try fails in the most catastrophic manner possible, you're going to see the landings fail. That, however, is rather phenomenally unlikely to happen and as it stands the actual historic landings if at all underperformed already. That's one of the biggest things all these wishful thinking hypotentials studiously try to ignore: In the overall grand scheme of things, the Germans were already extremely lucky to get as far as they did. The other side also getting lucky once in a while is how things work in an actual war, and on an operational (let alone strategical) scale that kind of thing tends to balance out overall. Ultimately only sore losers fishing for excuses blame operational defeats on "bad luck".
Retributarr wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:37 pm
Part 3. "De-bunking the De-bunkers":

Hunting Hitler The Secret Island... Huemul Island – Argentina
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Hunting+H ... 2c0e758481
Released on: November 11, 2020
Hunting Hitler: The Secret Island (ENG SUBS) - video ...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Huemul Island_Argentina
https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/huemul-island
The island houses the ruins of a secret nuclear fusion lab that once employed high-profile Nazi scientists.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Videos of Hunting Hitler The Secret Island
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Hu ... &FORM=VDRE
Wow. THIS is your mythical argentinian heavy water plant? THIS?

Yeah, uh dude? You're not debunking anything, you're making a fool of yourself believing in History Channel nonsense and trying to present it as substantial evidence.

The Huemul Island Project was started by the Peron government in 1949. That's when construction of the lab started. It was also, as noted, a laboratory, not a hydro-electrical heavy water plant. If you bothered to look at a map, you'd realize there is no actual rivers to run a hydro-electrical plant with on Huemul.

Also, the lab was closed again in 1952 already. Because the whole thing was a gigantic fraud. Richter was conning the argentinian government for several hundred million pesos, selling them a pseudo-scientific nonsense idea for a fusion(!) power plant and then conveniently coming up with excuse after excuse when he failed to produce any actual results.

Congratulations, you've fallen for a 70-years-old con. And failed to read your own linked sources. Your atlasobscura.com link literally notes that the facility was only built after WWII by the argentinian government in the second paragraph!
Last edited by Magni on Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Kerensky
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Kerensky » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:33 pm

Magni wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:17 pm
Ultimately only sore losers fishing for excuses blame operational defeats on "bad luck".
You're probably right.

But some events are just stuffed with luck. No it wasn't just 'dumb luck' that they stumbled upon Yamamoto, but it sure sounds like they sure had a of things all go directly according to a very complex plan with ultra exact timing for this to have happened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smMjyIJPMNI

And such an event has immeasurable impact.

Magni
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Magni » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:38 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:33 pm
Magni wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:17 pm
Ultimately only sore losers fishing for excuses blame operational defeats on "bad luck".
You're probably right.

But some events are just stuffed with luck. No it wasn't just 'dumb luck' that they stumbled upon Yamamoto, but it sure sounds like they sure had a of things all go directly according to a very complex plan with ultra exact timing for this to have happened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smMjyIJPMNI

And such an event has immeasurable impact.
And yet, the overall outcome an inevitability. The law of averages is pretty hard to beat. You'll get lucky some time, and unlucky at others. At an operational, let alone strategic scale, it generally ends up balancing out.

Thing is, when your victory relies on you getting lucky (or not unlucky) virtually every time? That's when it will all fall apart eventually. And that was ultimately the situation Germany found herself in from the end of 1941 onwards at the latest, on the strategic level.

In a similar vein, Fall Gelb is a good example. People ascribe the Fall of France almost entirely to luck, when it was hardly luck that the Germans would generally outfight French and British units at virtually every level in the summer of 1940. Even with the original plan of going throug the low countries, there would have been good odds for the Allies to get clobbered anyways, simply because they were punching well below their on-paper weight compared to the Germans at that point. Doctrine, training, experience etc. were all bigger factors than luck in the outcome of that campaign. (And that goes even more with Eben-Emael, which was hardly the result of luck as much as meticulous planning, extensive training and rehearsals and total surprise meeting undermanned and unprepared defenders.)
Last edited by Magni on Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kerensky
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Kerensky » Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:06 pm

Magni wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:38 pm
Thing is, when your victory relies on you getting lucky (or not unlucky) virtually every time? That's when it will all fall apart eventually. And that was ultimately the situation Germany found herself in from the end of 1941 onwards at the latest, on the strategic level.
I would have to disagree.

I have found nothing to indicate German OKW or Hitler was relying on 'luck'. Instead, they too created extremely elaborate plans with incredibly tight time tables that had little to no margin for error. And as soon as these timetables ran into issues (constant Soviet harassment and counter attacks always making objectives take more time and resources to secure than planned) they went to pieces because they relied on everything to go perfectly to plan. It's on a whole different scale than the assassination of Yamamoto, but it's colored by the same 'incredibly complex and tightly timed plan that needs everything to go off without a hitch' set up.

People think Germany was stupid to invade Russia during winter. It's the classic argument. Well, they didn't invade during winter. They invaded in June, and expected to be done before winter. But like any giant complex plan with no margin for error, it went to pieces when that plan encountered reality.

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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Kerensky » Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:25 pm

I've come to think that planning has its parallels in all plans, be it Military or even game design.

Games are planned years in advance. They're also advertised while parts of them don't actually exist, except as scribbles on a design document, and are under construction.

A game is a machine. It has outrageous amounts of individual moving parts inside of it (Games don't take up Gigabytes of storage just for no reason at all). All of these parts move together in harmony, and the game 'feels' like it's very well put together. Games inevitably have minor hiccups (bugs), which can be thought of as malfunctioning parts. If the malfunction is small and minor enough, the machine as a whole can continue running. Maybe not at 100% efficiency, but 90%, which is still very good running.

But the more problems you throw into the machine, the more broken parts, or problems with the people involved, and you get an Anthem or Fallout76. People can 'feel' there is something hugely wrong with these games, because so much individual pieces inside are not running right or breaking down. These problems are all the result of many individual parts of the game having problems, and now the 'machine' is running way below 50% efficiency.

https://kotaku.com/how-biowares-anthem- ... 1833731964
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjyeCdd-dl8

Just look at the continuing woes of Cyberpunk 2077. That game still ain't right, and their most recent patch is so long it has two 'parts'. And they only just finally got brought back to the PS4 store after months of being pulled off of it entirely.
https://store.steampowered.com/news/app ... 4552766777


Thusly, I would argue the sames goes for your 'myth' of D-Day being a given success, regardless of some good or bad luck surrounding a few events. Yes, Allies had overwhelming air and naval superiority over Normandy, which enormously contributed to their success. And there's no doubting an incredible amount of planning went into it, including many plans to deceive the Germans about their true target and intentions. This, by the way, was happening almost at the same time on the Eastern Front too, with the Soviets deceiving the Germans about Bagration.

But if there are enough problems in the 'machine' that is this hugely complex military operation, or just enough things go wrong when they need to go right, you get a Dieppe instead of an Overlord.

I mean, imagine the difference if the Allied attempts at deception regarding landing at Normandy failed. The Germans KNEW the Allies were landing in Normandy (precisely at Normandy, not a vague 'somewhere along the French coast' either) months in advance in the same way the Soviets KNEW the Germans were going to pincer attack Kursk. :shock:
Last edited by Kerensky on Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Retributarr
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Retributarr » Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:30 pm

Magni wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:17 pm
Kerensky wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:59 pm
Is it though? There are more than a few events that went awry during D-Day, but also so many more successes that could also have gone sideways or not had the impact they did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c844En8XvC4
So many more successes in tactical situations where by all rights success was already achieved long before the actual landings began. The old adage that battles can be won before they are fought was in full effect during the landings.

Yes, if we made it so that literally every single thing the Allies try fails in the most catastrophic manner possible, you're going to see the landings fail. That, however, is rather phenomenally unlikely to happen and as it stands the actual historic landings if at all underperformed already. That's one of the biggest things all these wishful thinking hypotentials studiously try to ignore: In the overall grand scheme of things, the Germans were already extremely lucky to get as far as they did. The other side also getting lucky once in a while is how things work in an actual war, and on an operational (let alone strategical) scale that kind of thing tends to balance out overall. Ultimately only sore losers fishing for excuses blame operational defeats on "bad luck".
Retributarr wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:37 pm
Part 3. "De-bunking the De-bunkers":

Hunting Hitler The Secret Island... Huemul Island – Argentina
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Hunting+H ... 2c0e758481
Released on: November 11, 2020
Hunting Hitler: The Secret Island (ENG SUBS) - video ...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Huemul Island_Argentina
https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/huemul-island
The island houses the ruins of a secret nuclear fusion lab that once employed high-profile Nazi scientists.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Videos of Hunting Hitler The Secret Island
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Hu ... &FORM=VDRE
Wow. THIS is your mythical argentinian heavy water plant? THIS? [Ret: No!... the heavy water was generated at the Hydro-Dam in Uruguay and... "Huemul Island"... was an 'Atomic Research Facility'. ]
Wow!!!... I already thought that I had already have seen the height of an 'Epic' demonstration of abject ignorance!!!. "Magni"... you are... tragiclally and obviously massively misinformed as well as uninformed and do not understand or know what actually took place... your still determined to keep living in the 'Alice in Wonderland Universe!.

Magni
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Magni » Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:30 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:06 pm
I would have to disagree.

I have found nothing to indicate German OKW or Hitler was relying on 'luck'. Instead, they too created extremely elaborate plans with incredibly tight time tables that had little to no margin for error. And as soon as these timetables ran into issues (constant Soviet harassment and counter attacks always making objectives take more time and resources to secure than planned) they went to pieces because they relied on everything to go perfectly to plan. It's on a whole different scale than the assassination of Yamamoto, but it's colored by the same 'incredibly complex and tightly timed plan that needs everything to go off without a hitch' set up.

People think Germany was stupid to invade Russia during winter. It's the classic argument. Well, they didn't invade during winter. They invaded in June, and expected to be done before winter. But like any giant complex plan with no margin for error, it went to pieces when that plan encountered reality.
The difference is that assassinating Yamamoto was not actually crucial to overall allied victory in the war - Japan was ultimately crushed by just a small portion of the overall american war effort after all. They could have easily afforded that particular operation going wrong. Hitler's grand strategic plans for the Eastern Front? Those going wrong was something Nazi Germany quite demonstratably couldn't afford. That's where this illusion of "luck" comes in: Both sides would in reality get lucky or unlucky regularily. It's just that the Allies could afford to get unlucky, owing to the massive strategic advantages they held.
Kerensky wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:25 pm
I mean, imagine the difference if the Allied attempts at deception regarding landing at Normandy failed. The Germans KNEW the Allies were landing in Normandy (precisely at Normandy, not a vague 'somewhere along the French coast' either) months in advance in the same way the Soviets KNEW the Germans were going to pincer attack Kursk. :shock:
Chances are? The Allies blow through regardless, if at greater cost. That, or they detect the buildup by the Germans and land elsewhere. Not to mention, Operation Dragoon is also going to happen anyway, and the Germans simply don't have the troops in the west to defend against both. This comes yet again back to the point that the Allies can afford tactical and operational failure to a much greater degree than the Axis. They don't have to get it right every time, they just have to get it right once.
Retributarr wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:30 pm
Wow!!!... I already thought that I had already have seen the height of an 'Epic' demonstration of abject ignorance!!!. "Magni"... you are... tragiclally and obviously massively misinformed as well as uninformed and do not understand or know what actually took place... your still determined to keep living in the 'Alice in Wonderland Universe!.
Wow, this story of yours is getting ever more convoluted, ridiculous and full of completely baseless claims, isn't it? Also, nice attempt at trying to dodge the fact that the Huemul Island facility you touted as proof of this mythical nazi nuclear program in South America was only built after the war, and the whole project was literally a fraud pulled by an ex-german scientist to scam the argentinian government.

And all you have for an answer when getting called out on it is worthless personal attacks like this, eh? Typical.

You know, I'll make this simple:
1. Please explain to us exactly how an argentinian nuclear research project (aimed at civilian power generation, not a weapon!) from the late '40s that turned out to be literally completely fraudulent is supposed to prove anything about your mythical succesful german nuclear weapons project and its equally mythical activities in South America.
2. Please provide proper citations for your mythical heavy water plant that was now supposedly in Uruguay, when literally every other location you named so far about this was in Argentina and you never said a word about Uruguay. And by proper citations, I mean actual articles and quotes, not just lazy links to freakin' TV episode statistics on Bink of all things, and the actual name and place of this supposed plant. PS: You are aware that Uruguay's government adopted a pro-British stance right from the start of the war, terminated all diplomatic relations with the Axis powers in 1942 and ultimately declared war on Nazi Germany in February 1945, right? Gee, this story of yours seems to become less and less likely with every little detail, doesn't it?

I'm waiting with bated breath. (And expecting that I'll be laughing my ass off yet again.)
Last edited by Magni on Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:07 am, edited 5 times in total.

Vorskl
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Vorskl » Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:39 pm

I guess it is only in German the idiom 'wunderwaffe' exists, and it's there for the reason. The crazy absurd projects like Karl, Maus, Bismark, He-177 sucked tremendous amount of resources with close to zero outcome. Imagine if Germany did not engage in the race of building the fleet and competing with the UK / USA, but focused on mass-production of cheap U-boats and PzIIIs... Actually, USSR made the same grave mistake - wasted tremendous resources on Baltic and BlackSea fleets that did nothing other than served as live targets for Rudel attacks; but could not build a single military-grade truck, making Studebaker the most important US lendlease help to the USSR . Nazy Germany military production strategy of relying on hand-made masterpieces was totally wrong. USSR and USA got it right - mass-produce something marginally better than junk and it'll work. Japan overshadowed Germans by building Yamato that did absolutely nothing useful.
German strategic plans were nothing else but chaos: invade Crete but skip Malta. Keep more forces in Norway than in whole North Africa (!). Keep Spain neutral and ultra-crucial Gibraltar open, but invade strategically useless Greece and Yugoslavia. How about the 40km gap between army groups Center and North in Belarus that lasted for a good half of 1942? Hindenburg would commit suicide glancing at the unfinished pieces here and there.
As for the D-day... even if Germans managed to repel the allies, that wont change anything on a large scale: US would just bomb Germany to the dust, UK fleet totally block supplies, and Soviet tanks eventually appear at Cherbourg and Marseilles in the summer of 1945. By the summer 1944 Germany was deprived of all strategic resources in Romania and Sweden, so it was just a matter of time.

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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Magni » Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:57 pm

Vorskl wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:39 pm
I guess it is only in German the idiom 'wunderwaffe' exists, and it's there for the reason. The crazy absurd projects like Karl, Maus, Bismark, He-177 sucked tremendous amount of resources with close to zero outcome. Imagine if Germany did not engage in the race of building the fleet and competing with the UK / USA, but focused on mass-production of cheap U-boats and PzIIIs... Actually, USSR made the same grave mistake - wasted tremendous resources on Baltic and BlackSea fleets that did nothing other than served as live targets for Rudel attacks; but could not build a single military-grade truck, making Studebaker the most important US lendlease help to the USSR . Nazy Germany military production strategy of relying on hand-made masterpieces was totally wrong. USSR and USA got it right - mass-produce something marginally better than junk and it'll work. Japan overshadowed Germans by building Yamato that did absolutely nothing useful.
This is also oversimplifying it. The Allies had their share of "Wunderwaffe" programs. Thing is, they could afford them. And, well, the B-29 and the Manhattan Project were pretty spectacular successes in that category. The problem for the Germans was even more severe than that. Building more Panzer IIIs and IVs isn't going to help. The real problem there was fuel and, increasingly as the war went on, trained manpower. Building more Panzer IIIs doesn't really help you much when you don't have the fuel and trained crews to operate them. Prioritizing quality over quantity was the right choice to get the most out of the limited capacities the Germans had to work with - it's just that getting the most out of them was still not nearly enough when put against well over three quarters of the entire world's GDP commanded by the Allies and Soviets. Trying for industrial attrittion was a guaranteed loss for the Nazis, so they had to try and find some kind of silver arrow that would allow them to punch well above their weight if they wanted to have any real chance at all.

Of course, the smart conclusion to draw from this is that they were going to lose the war, and made a huge mistake starting it in the first place. Not that they could have totally pulled it off if only [insert wishful thinking here].

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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Retributarr » Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:02 am

More "FACTS" for the "Grossly Mis-Informed!":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saint-Malo

The Battle of Saint-Malo
"Due to the extensive damage caused by German demolitions, it proved impractical to use Saint-Malo as a port. The town was also heavily damaged during the battle and was rebuilt after the war".

Image
A bomb exploding on the Citadel during the Battle of Saint-Malo

The Battle of Saint-Malo was fought between Allied and German forces to control the French coastal town of Saint-Malo during World War II. The battle formed part of the Allied breakout across France and took place between 4 August and 2 September 1944. United States Army units, with the support of Free French and British forces, successfully assaulted the town and defeated its German defenders. Much of Saint-Malo was destroyed in the fighting. The German garrison on a nearby island continued to resist until 2 September.

Magni
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Magni » Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:21 am

Retributarr wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:02 am
More "FACTS" for the "Grossly Mis-Informed!":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saint-Malo
Gee, your so-called facts yet again disregard all actual context. You know, like the fact that this happened during the breakout into Brittany, TWO MONTHS after the Normandy landings. Over a month after the Americans had already secured the much bigger port of Cherbourg and over two weeks after the Americans had brought Cherbourg back into operation despite the Germans having mined and demolished it. And, oh yes, several days AFTER the Americans had decisively broken through german lines and out into the French countryside with the success of Operation Cobra.

You're trying to hype up a sideshow that was happening as the Germans were already on the retreat across the entire theatre as being some kind of decisive battle that the entire success of the campaign hinged on. Even more comical, the article notes that the Germans demolished the port and allied hopes to use it did not come true. In other words, if the capture of St. Malo as a port had been such an essential lynchpin for the entirety of the invasion as you claim, the campaign would have failed. You're literally proving the exact opposite of what you claimed with this article.

Could you actually bother to properly read up the stuff you're trying to present as evidence for your claims instead of wasting everybody's time reading stuff that literally proves the exact opposite of what you are claiming? Because right now, the only "Grossly Mis-Informed" here is you. And that is if we're being generous and don't assume that you're plain lying and then reacting to being called out on it by doubling down on your lies.
Last edited by Magni on Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:55 am, edited 3 times in total.

Vorskl
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Vorskl » Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:36 am

Retributarr wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:02 am
More "FACTS" for the "Grossly Mis-Informed!":

The Battle of Saint-Malo was fought between Allied and German forces to control the French coastal town of Saint-Malo during World War II. The battle formed part of the Allied breakout across France and took place between 4 August and 2 September 1944. United States Army units, with the support of Free French and British forces, successfully assaulted the town and defeated its German defenders. Much of Saint-Malo was destroyed in the fighting. The German garrison on a nearby island continued to resist until 2 September.
Man, you're posting some top-notch fairy tales. For example, what American bomber you and BBC are talking about? Germans could not make a bomber able to bombard a much close Soviet Ural. Read the story of He-177 (not in Wiki, but in decent sources). Read about initial requirements to make this huge plane with a diving capability (!) - what did they smoke? The plane was HATED by Luftwaffe pilots and killed more crews than Soviet fighters.

Are you aware that Americans built an artificial port (!) right at the D-day landing site? So Germans blew this poor Saint-Malo for nothing, just a pointless retaliation probably.

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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Retributarr » Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:22 am

Magni wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:21 am
Retributarr wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:02 am
More "FACTS" for the "Grossly Mis-Informed!":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saint-Malo
Gee, your so-called facts yet again disregard all actual context. You know, like the fact that this happened during the breakout into Brittany, TWO MONTHS after the Normandy landings.
This continuing "As the Stomach Turns" _Soap-Opera_ with pointless counter-argument after pointless vicious counter-argument is humorous and laughable!.

The 'Allies' urgently required any and all 'Port Facilities" that they could acquire!... including "Antwerp and St. Malo [Not to be MISTAKEN for St. Lo!]. in-fact they additionally needed the 'Red-Ball-Express' to facilitate supply-efforts to the front-line... right up to the Rhine River practically. Just because the attempt to take "St. Malo" took place 2-Months after the D-Day landings... does not make the effort a pointless wasted enterprise... they still urgently needed it very much!.

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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Vorskl » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:13 am

Retributarr wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:22 am
Magni wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:21 am
Retributarr wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:02 am
More "FACTS" for the "Grossly Mis-Informed!":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saint-Malo
Gee, your so-called facts yet again disregard all actual context. You know, like the fact that this happened during the breakout into Brittany, TWO MONTHS after the Normandy landings.
This continuing "As the Stomach Turns" _Soap-Opera_ with pointless counter-argument after pointless vicious counter-argument is humorous and laughable!.

The 'Allies' urgently required any and all 'Port Facilities" that they could acquire!... including "Antwerp and St. Malo [Not to be MISTAKEN for St. Lo!]. in-fact they additionally needed the 'Red-Ball-Express' to facilitate supply-efforts to the front-line... right up to the Rhine River practically. Just because the attempt to take "St. Malo" took place 2-Months after the D-Day landings... does not make the effort a pointless wasted enterprise... they still urgently needed it very much!.
Fact-checking:
the port of St Malo dimensions http://www.worldportsource.com/ports/po ... o_1238.php note the deepest depth is 7.1 meter; compare it to Cherbourg's 12 meters, which is a very decent even by modern standards https://www.findaport.com/port-of-cherbourg
Now, the Liberty vessel draft is... 8.5 meters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_ship
So unless Eisenhower planned to use fishboats to supply its troops, St Malo was of close to nothing value from the strategic point of view.

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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by BaronVonKrieg » Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:56 am

Damn im all about ahistorical dlcs and outcomes, but some stuff i read here are just so over the top and silly, history isnt some things you read on wikis, for Germans to win the war so many things needed to fundamentally be different, and even then axis had little chance to win, like enigma shouldn't be broken, Japanese codes shouldn't be broken or they know their codes are broken and need an alternative, damn they kept using them because they didn't knew they where broken freeing Russian far north troops from British info, resource wise Germans where screwd there is just no viable outcome for them, as i said so much needed to be changed, Spain entering war in future dlc would be silly as it was established theyre civil war was long lasting and devastating, only thing i see game wise mby our mby our engineers helped a lot by rebuilding (in that prestige sink i think) but still just Spain entering war wouldn't be enough, maybe Italians and Italian navy are competent and take hold of Mediterranean, i doubt that would help much, surley it would make thing harder dor the allies, but in the end its just a thing of postponing axis deafeat, mby in some far off alternative universe where America is to lazy to eneter the war, and Germany consolidates European and African resources, while taking oil fields of Russian but thats just too far fetched

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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by zakblood » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:15 am

all forum posts are read and message and replies monitored, posts have been removed, if this thread goes into a flame war or off topic in replies and quote on quote, i will close it, or give out warnings, consider this friendly advice, there won't be another reminder, 2 warnings equals a forum ban,...

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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Bee1976 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:26 pm

So back to the topic :)

@Kerensky
Wagner, we need him back...some kind of "wunderwaffe zombie wagner" would be ok :mrgreen: but really we need him....

and well, im not sure if you are allowed to post this information, but some kind of roadmap (not detailed) for 2021 or the times after gc would be really nice. maybe in the next tea time with slitherine ? :D

Vorskl
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Vorskl » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:02 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:25 pm

I mean, imagine the difference if the Allied attempts at deception regarding landing at Normandy failed. The Germans KNEW the Allies were landing in Normandy (precisely at Normandy, not a vague 'somewhere along the French coast' either) months in advance in the same way the Soviets KNEW the Germans were going to pincer attack Kursk. :shock:
Despite the popular myths, Soviet DID NOT know the exact direction of the strike. The bulk of Soviet forces was positioned at north whereas the main German strike was at south. Hence at north Germans were stopped at the 1st of 3 defense lines, but at South they smashed all 3 lines (so only heavy losses and Soviet reserves prevented further advance). In Soviet literature they say the artillery strike on July 5th was a huge success, but German documents defy this, suggesting Soviet arty just fired directionally, not precisely at the positions.
What worked in favor of USSR at Kursk is sad lessons of the Kharkov catastrophe in 1942 (DLC 1942 here we go :)). It was obvious that one of parties will attempt to cut the salient. Since Soviet troops were exhausted after the spring 1943 rush, Stavka decided to let Germans try it this time. At Kharkov 1942, only TWELVE km of single-line defense lines were placed (not enough to protect a single infantry division's front); but by Kursk these lessons were learned by RKKA (yet there still was sloppiness here and there).
I also think Kharkov (and Rzhev (DLC 1942 again :) ) also made German commanders overconfident, letting them believe Soviet dont know how to handle salients.

Retributarr
1st Lieutenant - 15 cm sFH 18
1st Lieutenant - 15 cm sFH 18
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Retributarr » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:41 pm

https://d-daywwiibattleofnormandy.weebl ... dings.html
WWII: Battle of Normandy_ The 4th Infantry Divisions Unopposed Landings

Utah Beach

-Casualties on Utah Beach, were the lightest of any beach, with 197 out of the roughly 23,000 men that landed. The 4th Infantry Division troops landing at Utah Beach found themselves in the wrong positions because of a current that pushed their landing craft to the southeast. Instead of landing at Tare Green and Uncle Red sectors, they came ashore at Victor sector, relatively little German opposition was encountered. The 4th Infantry Division was able to press inland relatively easily over beach exits that had been seized from the inland side by the 502nd and 506th Parachute Infantry Regiments of the 101st Airborne Division. This was partially by accident, because their planned landing was further along the beach. (Brigadier General Theodore Roosevelt Jr., the Assistant Commander of the 4th Division, upon discovering the landings were off course, became famous for saying "We will start the war from right here.") By early afternoon, the 4th Infantry Division had succeeded in linking up with elements of the 101st. American casualties were light, the troops were able to press inward much faster than expected, making it a near-complete success

Kerensky
Content Designer
Content Designer
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Kerensky » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:47 pm

Bee1976 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:26 pm
So back to the topic :)

@Kerensky
Wagner, we need him back...some kind of "wunderwaffe zombie wagner" would be ok :mrgreen: but really we need him....

and well, im not sure if you are allowed to post this information, but some kind of roadmap (not detailed) for 2021 or the times after gc would be really nice. maybe in the next tea time with slitherine ? :D
Slitherine doesn't like Roadmaps, and I actually agree with them on this principle.

I like the idea of a Roadmap, because I've seen it abused so poorly in other games, and it can really, really backfire (Anthem). I mean, a Roadmap is a pretty bold promise to deliver on very specific content on a very specific timetable. And I just got finishing ranting in this thread about just how dangerous such a plan is.

It lacks flexibility in that it is now a commitment to make XYZ content, where not having a roadmap has freedom to maneuver and adjust if external or internal plans changes.
It also lacks flexibility in that it's setting hard deadlines, and as soon as a product starts to under-deliver content or full on entirely miss a promised deadline, in comes the 'game in trouble' brigade. Granted, they're often right, but still. :P

I am very much a 'I don't make promises I can't keep' kind of person, and as much as I would luv the idea to lay out grand plans in a really ambitious road map... It's safer and a better work ethic to take a long project journey one step at a time. Each DLC gets it's time in the spotlight as it needs to be the best it can be. Being chained to a roadmap can easily cause problems. If XYZ asset for ABC DLC is not ready on time... do you release without that asset, or do you delay the product and potentially affect the entire roadmap with a pushback?

Player feedback is also affecting upcoming content all the time to. Not in a bad way (Abandon Axis Operations to pivot to non-German Campaigning as a knee-jerk reaction) but in other subtle ways that a Roadmap might not allow. For example, if we road mapped a 'catalog of Nemesis' and showcased a bunch of these opponents like Vega in SCW, De Gaulle 1940, khrushchev 1942, Zhukov 1943... well not everyone is happy with Nemesis, so we've had the flexibility to not always have a Nemesis based on feedback. Also, player desire to influence the war's outcome wasn't part of the initial plan, but it's being (slowly) adapted into the content, with special Meteor event from Sea Lion, and the raid on the Kremlin yielding something other than just a retreat to Rzhev.

Anyways ranting aside, all I can say is I'm very motivated to continue the New Grand Campaign. This might sound really stupid, but I also want to see what happens to our characters. :D
And from a creative writing perspective, it's a ton of fun to have the characters interact with real historical figures. How Rommel was written in 1940 was definitely well received, even if players were annoyed at how he 'played' the Abbeville scenario... Have to admit though, he does a good job helping encircle Lille.

But that's because Lille is a very complex set of instructions laid out for Rommel's units, where Abbeville asks Rommel AI to 'think on its feet' which is a challenge it wasn't quite up to (given the fact that enemy reinforcements in that map are randomized, and no complex set of instructions could be laid out in advance to accommodate for this).

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